Calling out Josephw.....and others

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not sure what you mean by he gave us the ability in some cases
and not in others. You decrying the fact you cannot fly on your own
things like that?
Kelly

That would be one example. Other examples would be our ability to detect or do something about medical problems, e.g. detecting that an epileptic fit is about to happen (something some dogs and cats can do), which would allow us to help the person get into a safe position and therefore prevent injuries. There are also things he grants some people and not others, e.g. some people have the strength to strangle someone if they should will so, others don't; and likewise some people would be able to free that buried child I was talking about earlier, while others wouldn't. An example for something he gave us the ability to do if we will (and often even if we don't) is to hurt someone emotionally, which wouldn't be possible if he had made us less vulnerable.

Another important point is that even if we can't do everything we will, God is supposed to be omnipotent, so if he'd really value our free will so much, he could help us out. If I'd see someone unsuccessfully trying to get that rock off the child, I would offer my help.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
There is evidence for the Big Bang, really?

Yes. Where have you been? Oh yeah, reading the bible 😛

Describe for me the Big Bang, tell me about what was going on before,
during, and after and let me judge how your story lines up with what
we see today.

What an idiotic question. No one knows what specifically was going on before - ...[text shortened]... , tomorrow's theory hopefully will be better than yesterday's. That's called progress.

Okay to recap, correct me where I read what you said wrong.

1. Before the Big Bang
You have the big bang, except you don't know specifically what was
going on before, you have no evidence. I think this is weak, but
okay you don't know, you just know it is better than the Bible. I do
not know how you think it is better than the Bible you just do. I guess
it is all of that evidence you have to rely on, oh wait, there isn't any
evidence to rely on, but it is still better than the Bible for some
other reason I guess.

2. During the Big Bang
Um, not sure about your answer here, the universe is expanding
according to the evidence and it implies a trend. Which must mean
that there was a Big Bang because you see some type of movement
in the universe, and everyone knows when something is moving
there had to be a bang in there some where. This is better than the
Bible, because the special effects would have been cool on HD TV
when we see our recording of the event played back I guess.

Why you brought a static universe up I don't know, I assume you
have a reason, but I don't know what it is.

3. After the Big Bang
I'm guessing you wrapped up your during the Big Bang answer in with
your after the Big Bang answer. I don't see much here to convince me
one way or another, I don't even think you tried.

What do you mean give you physical, concrete evidence that is NOT
the Bible. The universe is the same no matter what you believe
happened, it is all the same evidence, it is the same universe the
assumptions about how it started color it as I said before.

With respect to evidence I'd use life, its diversity and variety. I don't
think you can prove that the living systems we see today can come
up from a single point of time without a plan and purpose. If you can
show me non-living material accidently through time, chance, and the
laws of the universe cause life to spring from non-life we can talk.
What you have is life, and the assumption that it has been changing
through time from a single point. The reason why all the hows and
whys this evolutionary story keep changing is because nothing
everyone puts together actually fits reality. It is like building a house
on shifting sand, it changes and changes there is nothing solid there
except that the story has to keep changing.

Your story is better in your opinion because it is forever changing;
lies are like that too you know, when ever they get confronted with
the truth. Saying 1+1=2 over 2000 years ago does not make it
untrue today, ageless truth is just that, truth that does not age.

I can believe that God created the heaven and earth and still seek
knowledge without lifting up my hands and say oh well, "God did it".
Believing in God has nothing to do with the earth being flat or the
sun revolving around the earth either. Change isn't bad, it also isn't
good either just for change sake.

I agree things in science are always provisionally true, nothing wrong
with that either. Progress is getting it right not because you can
change your story every time you turn around. Science is ever learning
but never really coming into knowledge because it is all provisional.
Kelly

Originally posted by Nordlys
That would be one example. Other examples would be our ability to detect or do something about medical problems, e.g. detecting that an epileptic fit is about to happen (something some dogs and cats can do), which would allow us to help the person get into a safe position and therefore prevent injuries. There are also things he grants some people and not oth ...[text shortened]... see someone unsuccessfully trying to get that rock off the child, I would offer my help.

So God telling us how to live isn't enough, he should force to do it the
way it should be done?
Kelly

Originally posted by Nordlys
Yes:

T[b]hen the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

😉[/b]

I wish you wouldn't do this kind of foolish code hunting in the Bible.

Skeptics of the faith then only seize upon the opportunity to accuse spiritual interpreters of the Bible as using "coder rings."

You supply them with fuel.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay to recap, correct me where I read what you said wrong.

1. Before the Big Bang
You have the big bang, except you don't know specifically what was
going on before, you have no evidence. I think this is weak, but
okay you don't know, you just know it is better than the Bible. I do
not know how you think it is better than the Bible you just do. I gu ning
but never really coming into knowledge because it is all provisional.
Kelly

I don't think I have time this week or maybe month to correct all the places that you read what I said wrong. Your post is filled with complete misinterpretations at length of what I said.

You seem to be putting what I say into your own preconceived notions instead of even trying to actually understand it. I don't know how you could misunderstand me that much frankly.

I can say that I don't think you read anything I said right.

I might be able later on to put in some effort though to try and correct some of the more glaring falsehoods though.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I don't think I have time this week or maybe month to correct all the places that you read what I said wrong. Your post is filled with complete misinterpretations at length of what I said.

You seem to be putting what I say into your own preconceived notions instead of even trying to actually understand it. I don't know how you could misunderstand me t ...[text shortened]... n to put in some effort though to try and correct some of the more glaring falsehoods though.

Well if it is any consolation it happens to me all the time too, I'll
make a point and next thing I know I feel like the person I was
talking to is trying to read my mind instead of what I wrote. I do
want to know your point of view, not what I think you mean so if
you are interested in carrying on this conversation just take what
I wrote as my misunderstanding of what you said and we can try
to correct it later.
Thanks for you time by the way!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree with that, it is what I personally believe happened.
I also believe the other creatures were created according to the
Genesis story too, and after that they started going through all the
changes life goes through in this universe.
Kelly

Don't take it too literal, Kelly Jay. The Genesis story is not meant to be taken literally.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Don't take it too literal, Kelly Jay. The Genesis story is not meant to be taken literally.

So you say.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay to recap, correct me where I read what you said wrong.

1. Before the Big Bang
You have the big bang, except you don't know specifically what was
going on before, you have no evidence. I think this is weak, but
okay you don't know, you just know it is better than the Bible. I do
not know how you think it is better than the Bible you just do. I gu ...[text shortened]... ning
but never really coming into knowledge because it is all provisional.
Kelly

Ok..Here is at least a small response.

1-3 - the big bang.

First of all, I'm not an astronomer and I don't know, or claim to know, everything about the big bang theory. However, I do know that we do have evidence the universe is expanding. Now, if you see the universe is currently expanding, it logically follows that it was smaller yesterday then today..etc..

At some point it would have had to start expanding from some point and there is no evidence it was sometime ago static. It could have been, but we can't say it was since we have no evidence of that.

With respect to evidence I'd use life, its diversity and variety. I don't
think you can prove that the living systems we see today can come
up from a single point of time without a plan and purpose.

I see no evidence of a plan and purpose either. What purpose does god have? Is it just to go to heaven? So our purpose is just to die. Wow...that's such a great and grand purpose!

This is also the logical fallacy of "argument from incredulity". I can't understand how it could not be this way, so it must be this way.

The reason why all the hows and
whys this evolutionary story keep changing is because nothing
everyone puts together actually fits reality.

The reason it changes is because as we know more, we change to adapt to what we know. We don't assume a book is everything and go from there.

Your story is better in your opinion because it is forever changing;
lies are like that too you know, when ever they get confronted with
the truth. Saying 1+1=2 over 2000 years ago does not make it
untrue today, ageless truth is just that, truth that does not age.

NO! My story is better because it changes due to new evidence coming to light. Not simply because it changes for change sake. The bible suggests the earth is 6000 years old. We have tons of evidence that is not true - so we change our beliefs to match reality, we don't deny reality and the evidence in front of us just to match a 2000 year old book.

We see light that has come from stars that we know has traveled for more than 6000 years. That definitively suggests that the universe is more than 6000 years. I read someone came up with a claim that this happened because the speed of light somehow was slowing down from 6000 years ago down to the 1950's when it became constant. Tell me that you can see how ridiculous that claim is?

Why would you suggest that the speed of light (throughout the universe) somehow arbitrarily slowed to a constant at one point? God just decided it?

What proof I'd like to see of god is a violation of the natural laws and theories we have tons of evidence for. For example, a hurricane is about to hit Florida and we have tons of technology monitoring the weather patterns there. All of a sudden the wind just stops 2 meters off the coast - it JUST STOPS as if a blank force field appears. Now, the old testament god appeared to have no problem doing that kind of thing, why not now?

Or if god lead the poor people who are being murdered in darfur out of there, split the Mediterranean sea and led them to Italy where they could live in peace.

If we believe the bible, then god can save millions of lives AND re-invigorate the faith of people all around the world in one fell swoop, but apparently he doesn't care to.

Nature behaving the way we know nature to behave is not proof of god. Nature behaving arbitrarily and contrary to everything we do know, without any other explanation may just be evidence of god.

Originally posted by jaywill
I wish you wouldn't do this kind of foolish code hunting in the Bible.

Skeptics of the faith then only seize upon the opportunity to accuse spiritual interpreters of the Bible as using "coder rings."

You supply them with fuel.

You don't have much of a sense of humor, do you?

Originally posted by KellyJay
So God telling us how to live isn't enough, he should force to do it the
way it should be done?
Kelly

I can't see how he would force us by enabling us to help someone if we choose to do so. As for things like killing someone, do you think that people have a right to do so and should not be hindered? What about the other person's right to live? And if you do think that it's right to hinder someone who wants to kill someone else, why do you think it would be wrong to prevent it from the start by not giving xym the ability to kill?

But I would already be happy if God would give people some more abilities allowing them to do good when they will it, and if he would also give them the ability to not do things they don't really mean to do (e.g. hurting someone in an accident or due to losing control). I think the majority of evil acts has little to do with free will.