1. Standard memberAiko
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    23 Jun '08 22:25
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Do you believe Jesus, like the Dutch in WW2, was a failure for his inability to defend himself by not taking up arms?
    You don't know your history that well.
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    23 Jun '08 22:26
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    Yes
    YouTube&feature=related

    So , class, what have we learned today?
  3. Donationkirksey957
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    23 Jun '08 22:28
    This is a good movie that I would recommend for all you "the world is coming to an end without the NRA" types.

    YouTube
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    23 Jun '08 22:401 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Goddamn it, I believe in Jesus! That is my problem. I cannot find a single person to give me some congruent theology about bearing arms being a "God-given right" and the utter ineptitude of Jesus not defending himself on the way to the cross.

    That was all I was asking. IS that too much to ask?
    Esther 8:10-12 "Mordecai wrote in the name of King Xerxes, sealed the dispatches with the king's signet ring, and sent them by mounted couriers, who rode fast horses especially bred for the king.
    The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality or province that might attack them and their women and children; and to plunder the property of their enemies. The day appointed for the Jews to do this in all the provinces of King Xerxes was the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of Adar."

    That was the best example I could find in my brief search to justify any sort of violence towards another on the basis of protecting yourself, and its from the OT specifically in reference to the Jews' counter-offensive against a genocide plot against them, and was permitted for one day only in these circumstances. Even then, this right was granted by their King, not by God, unless you argue that the King is put in place there by God.

    However, among the many things Jesus revoked, violence of any form was certainly one of them. This is pretty explicit in denouncing any sort of violence, inclusive of protecting yourself:

    Matthew 5:38-40 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

    Matthew 5:10-14 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
    You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
    You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."

    I'd like to see it explained how protecting yourself at all can be justified in light of these passages.
  5. Donationkirksey957
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    23 Jun '08 22:45
    Originally posted by JonoKyle
    Esther 8:10-12 "Mordecai wrote in the name of King Xerxes, sealed the dispatches with the king's signet ring, and sent them by mounted couriers, who rode fast horses especially bred for the king.
    The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality ...[text shortened]... xplained how protecting yourself at all can be justified in light of these passages.
    Thank you for your efforts. I am hoping Visteds will offer an interpretation of this OT passage. I'm glad you pointed out the genocide issue. I am unaware of the present US government plotting a genocide in our own country, but I guess anything is possible according to some. As Ghandi said, once you put a gun in a man's hands you have changed his personality.
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    23 Jun '08 23:48
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Thank you for your efforts. I am hoping Visteds will offer an interpretation of this OT passage. I'm glad you pointed out the genocide issue. I am unaware of the present US government plotting a genocide in our own country, but I guess anything is possible according to some. As Ghandi said, once you put a gun in a man's hands you have changed his personality.
    I also quite like a quote by Chairman Mao that seems hugely in line with this line of thinking:

    "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun."
  7. SEMO
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    24 Jun '08 00:34
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Do you believe Jesus, like the Dutch in WW2, was a failure for his inability to defend himself by not taking up arms?

    Also I noticed that there were no biblical references in that website for "the right to bear arms" being "God-given". Could you cite some? Your theology intrigues me.
    Joe 3:7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
    Joe 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
    Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
    Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
  8. SEMO
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    24 Jun '08 00:372 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Does anyone actually believe that bearing arms actually stops the government from getting too powerful?
    Yes, it does keep the government from getting too powerful. The Surpeme Court even talked about it in the D.C. gun ban hearings just this mounth in the D.C. vs. Heller case.
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    24 Jun '08 03:36
    Originally posted by pritybetta
    Yes the right to bear arms and also the right to carry on your person if you desire to.
    I think you're basically a coward.
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    24 Jun '08 03:57
    Originally posted by pritybetta
    Joe 3:7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
    Joe 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
    Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the G ...[text shortened]... t your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
    You mean the book of Joel.

    This is once again from the OT, when God is here declaring the regions of Tyre, Sidon and Philistia enemies of Judah and Jerusalem, because of the sale of his people into slavery. The 'quoting' of God ends with Joel 3:8 at "the LORD hath spoken". The rest of those verses were constructed by a human, and that to me leaves doubt over the way you have interpreted it. I'd want to examine it a bit more before deciding that verse 9 onwards is justification for war from God.

    The NT opens God's covenant to man beyond that of just the Jews, so whether or not this verse was relevant for it's content originally, it's context certainly makes it irrelevant to justifying bearing arms as a God given right.
  11. weedhopper
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    24 Jun '08 04:43
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hJ-3pGhuXI&feature=related

    So , class, what have we learned today?
    Umm--that Robin Williams has been in better movies?
    Honestly--I don't see the relevance to your ? and my answer.
  12. Cape Town
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    24 Jun '08 06:21
    Originally posted by pritybetta
    Yes, it does keep the government from getting too powerful. The Surpeme Court even talked about it in the D.C. gun ban hearings just this mounth in the D.C. vs. Heller case.
    I'd like to know how that works. Bush has been taking away people rights, what is being done about it by the armed citizens? Do you go and shoot a politician? I'm just curious how being armed helps.
    The supreme court talking about something doesn't really help me.
    I am also hoping to pass on the useful information to the people of Zimbabwe.
  13. weedhopper
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    24 Jun '08 12:06
    Originally posted by WWindmill
    I think you're basically a coward.
    I think you are basically rude. There are ways to debate and not be insulting; it's called being civilized.
  14. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Jun '08 13:02
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/REL_DOBSON_OBAMA?SITE=KYLOU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

    Now this takes courage: "I'm not sure the Defense Department could pass the Sermon on the Mount."
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    24 Jun '08 15:53
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    I think you are basically rude. There are ways to debate and not be insulting; it's called being civilized.
    I wasnt being rude but honest. Being civilised is taking ten times the effort and ten times the pain to achieve what can be done once. 😕.
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