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    17 Feb '15 16:18
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Jesus and God are one in the same. Jesus never sinned.
    if Jesus and God were the same then his words, 'why do you call me good teacher, no one is good except the father', make no sense. In fact Jesus contradicts what you yourself are saying, he is saying that no one, not even he himself, is like the father.
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    17 Feb '15 19:341 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    so was Micheal Servetus apparently, it didn't give Calvin license to murder him.
    There is no evidence that John Calvin ever murdered anyone.

    To Calvin, who had written his summary of Christian doctrine (Institutes of the Christian Religion), Servetus' latest book was an attack on his personally held theories regarding Christian belief, theories that he put forth as "established Christian doctrine". Calvin sent a copy of his own book as his reply. Servetus promptly returned it, thoroughly annotated with critical observations. Calvin wrote to Servetus, "I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity." In time their correspondence grew more heated until Calvin ended it. Servetus sent Calvin several more letters, to which Calvin took offense. Thus, Calvin's antagonism against Servetus seems to have been based not simply on his views but also on Servetus's tone, which he considered inappropriate.

    On 16 February 1553, Michael Servetus while in Vienne, was denounced as a heretic by Guillaume de Trie, a rich merchant who had taken refuge in Geneva, and who was a good friend of Calvin, in a letter sent to a cousin, Antoine Arneys, who was living in Lyon. On behalf of the French inquisitor Matthieu Ory, Michael Servetus and Balthasard Arnollet, the printer of Christianismi Restitutio, were questioned, but they denied all charges and were released for lack of evidence.

    Meaning to flee to Italy, Servetus inexplicably stopped in Geneva, where Calvin and his Reformers had denounced him. On 13 August, he attended a sermon by Calvin at Geneva. He was arrested after the service and again imprisoned. All his property was confiscated. Servetus claimed during this judgement he was arrested at an inn at Geneva. French Inquisitors asked that Servetus be extradited to them for execution. Calvin wanted to show himself as firm in defense of Christian orthodoxy as his usual opponents. "He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command." Calvin's delicate health meant he did not personally appear against Servetus. Nicholas de la Fontaine played the more active role in Servetus's prosecution and the listing of points that condemned him.
    Among the possible reasons which prevented Calvin from appearing personally against Servetus there was one which must have seemed of itself sufficient. The laws regulating criminal actions in Geneva required that in certain grave cases the complainant himself should be incarcerated pending the trial.

    At his trial, Servetus was condemned on two counts, for spreading and preaching Nontrinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism (anti-infant baptism). Of paedobaptism Servetus had said, "It is an invention of the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity.

    Though Calvin objected to the method of Servetus's execution (which he viewed as cruel), he nevertheless believed Servetus deserved death on account of what he termed as his "execrable blasphemies".

    In fact, the council that condemned Servetus was presided over by Perrin (a Libertine) who ultimately on 24 October sentenced Servetus to death by burning for denying the Trinity and infant baptism. When Calvin requested that Servetus be executed by decapitation as a traitor rather than by fire as a heretic, Farel, in a letter of 8 September, chided him for undue lenience. The Geneva Council refused his request. On 27 October 1553 Servetus was burned at the stake just outside Geneva with what was believed to be the last copy of his book chained to his leg.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus
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    17 Feb '15 19:59
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Jesus and God are one in the same. Jesus never sinned.
    They are one "in purpose". That would be to Sanctify Jehovah God's name, to Vindicate Jehovah's rightful Sovereignty, and as a side benefit save our everlasting life.
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    17 Feb '15 21:11
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    There is no evidence that John Calvin ever murdered anyone.

    To Calvin, who had written his summary of Christian doctrine (Institutes of the Christian Religion), Servetus' latest book was an attack on his personally held theories regarding Christian belief, theories that he put forth as "established Christian doctrine". Calvin sent a copy of his ow ...[text shortened]... t copy of his book chained to his leg.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus
    He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command - Calvin the murderer.
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    17 Feb '15 22:281 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Actually when questioned about it, Jesus stated 'why do you call be good teacher, no one is good except the father'. You simply made your version up.
    Check the passage again robbie.

    No one is good except God.

    Mark 10:18

    New American Standard Bible
    And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.


    Luke 18:19

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One--God.

    International Standard Version
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Nobody is good except for one—God.
  6. R
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    17 Feb '15 22:448 edits
    I thank a few of you for cluing me into this important matter of history of John Calvin and Servertus. As I expected it to be it is more nuanced than a straight forward matter easy to propogandize either one way or the other.

    Of course I wish this had not happened. For the man to be burned at the stake was as ghastly as what German Nazis did to Jehovah's Witnesses and retarded people along with Jews. It a horrendous crime against humanity.

    John Calvin was involved. The degree of his involvement is contested. But complicity is evident from most accounts I have reviewed up to now.

    Compared to 21rst Century separation of church and state disputes in many Western countries it is hard for us to imagine the 16th century's way of dealing with heretics.

    I noticed that Calvin was in favor of banishment of heretics rather than death - argues one source.

    I noticed that Calvin visited Servetus in prison to no doubt change his mind.
    I notice that Calvin was the prosecuting witness.
    I noticed that Calvin argued that he be beheaded rather than burned.
    Not much consolation in that.

    I noticed it is a mystery why Servetus should have been in Geneva at all. Some say his followers in Geneva wanted him to come to Geneva, argue with Calvin and discredit him, driving him away. If that is why he was there it sorely backfired.

    I notice that Calvin had been insulted by Servetus.
    He also wrote a sarcastically titled rebuttal - "The Restitutes of the Christian Religion" in rebuttal to Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion"
    And I notice that some mean things said about the controversy are attributed to Calvin.

    Its a nuanced affair. And I can see why anti-trinitarians would point to it as an example of terrible mistreatment of anti-trinitarians.

    I also see that the Protestants did not want to appear weak to the eyes of the Catholics. Since the Catholics wanted to kill Servetus, and he fled to Geneva for some strange reason, the Protestants wanted to appear not to be SOFT on heretics to the Catholics.

    Ugly affair. Certainly it is ugly in being seen through the eyes of the modern century. It is hard for us to understand how a doctrinal error could be viewed in the Middle Ages as a crime against society as a whole.
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    17 Feb '15 22:501 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Check the passage again robbie.

    No one is good except God.

    [b]Mark 10:18


    New American Standard Bible
    And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.


    Luke 18:19

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is ...[text shortened]... [/b]
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Nobody is good except for one—God.
    [/b]
    'why do you call me good teacher', Jesus said, 'no one is good except for God'. Clearly Jesus one again distances himself from making himself equal to God, something that seems all but lost on the trinitarians. If he was God as you and RBHill are claiming then his statement, 'why do you call me good', 'no one is good except for God', makes no logical sense.
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    17 Feb '15 22:572 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    'why do you call me good teacher', Jesus said, 'no one is good except for God'. Clearly Jesus one again distances himself from making himself equal to God, something that seems all but lost on the trinitarians. If he was God as you and RBHill are claiming then his statement, 'why do you call me good', 'no one is good except for God', makes no logical sense.


    It is true that at some times Jesus stood on the ground of being MAN.
    It is also true that at some times Jesus stood on the ground of being God.

    Both were true.
    Both are still true today and through eternity.
    He is God-man.
    And Jesus said and did what was the appropriate thing to do with the right spirit at the right time and in the right way.

    Standing on the ground of man I do not see as "distancing Himself" as you say. Rather I see it as Him vindicating godliness that a man may be ONE with the will of God as He was with the will of His Father.

    And the actual quotation, I take more in this way -

    ie. "If you are willing to call Me GOOD then you must be willing to call Me GOD."

    That is the sense and the implication I get from the saying.
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    18 Feb '15 02:37
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] 'why do you call me good teacher', Jesus said, 'no one is good except for God'. Clearly Jesus one again distances himself from making himself equal to God, something that seems all but lost on the trinitarians. If he was God as you and RBHill are claiming then his statement, 'why do you call me good', 'no one is good except for God', makes no logical ...[text shortened]... ust be willing to call Me GOD."

    That is the sense and the implication I get from the saying.
    again this is you attempting to imply what is not explicitly stated in scripture because lets face it, that's the nature of the trinity. Jesus doesn't say that both were true, what he in fact says that only God is good, you simply made the rest up.
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    18 Feb '15 03:383 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    again this is you attempting to imply what is not explicitly stated in scripture because lets face it, that's the nature of the trinity. Jesus doesn't say that both were true, what he in fact says that only God is good, you simply made the rest up.


    No you made up stuff.

    Jesus testifies that He is God.
    Jesus also testifies that He is a man.

    For example:

    1.) He testifies that He is God -

    John 8:57,58 - "The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old and have You seen Abraham?

    Jesus said to them, Truly, truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being I am.

    So they picked up stones to throw at Him ..."


    Jesus here did not simply say "Before Abraham came into being I WAS". He said "Before Abraham came into being I AM" identifying Himself with God Himself who spoke to Moses in Exodus 3.

    " Then Moses said to God, If I come to the children of Israel and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they say to me, What is His name" what shall I say to them?

    And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said. Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." (Exodus 3:13,14)


    The man Jesus of Nazareth said "Before Abraham came into being I AM" testifying that He was the God of Exodus, the God of the fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was and is the ever existing, self existing God.

    2.) And of course His most used title which He spoke of Himself was "the Son of Man". So He testified to being both God and man. And it is therefore no wonder that John in his prologue states that the Word was God and that the Word became flesh.

    The Trinity is about God making a journey into man. You don't believe the Trinity because you do not believe in the process God went through to branch out and into man to fulfill His plan to unite with man.

    A limited illustration could be used to observe that water may be solid ice, or liquid, or vapor. These are three aspects of the same thing. This is a limited allegory. It is not perfect. But it is useful.

    The vapor steam is the final stage of the water which can enter most easily into us by our inhaling. The Holy Spirit is the consummation of the Triune God in God's desire to dispense Himself into man. The Father is the source. The Son is the expression. And the Holy Spirit is the consummation, the ultimate "reaching" of the Father embodied in the Son transmitted into the believers.

    "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) is the Triune God in consummation as the Father coming in the Son being dispensed as the life giving Holy Spirit imparting God as divine and eternal life into man.

    But for the immediate purposes of this post, some are able to see that Jesus testified being the eternal ever existing and self existing I AM, the God of the Old Testament. And He also called Himself "the Son of Man" .

    ie. - "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up." (John 3:14)

    ie - "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)
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    18 Feb '15 03:511 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    again this is you attempting to imply what is not explicitly stated in scripture because lets face it, that's the nature of the trinity. Jesus doesn't say that both were true, what he in fact says that only God is good, you simply made the rest up.


    No you made up stuff.

    Jesus testifies that He is God.
    Jesus also testifies that ...[text shortened]... do nothing from Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)
    [/b]
    I am uninterested in this, been through it a million times, wont be going through it again. The fact of the matter is the scripture explicitly states that Jesus does not recognise that he is good and in fact make the claim that only God is good. There is no mention that its reference to Jesus as an alleged God or Jesus as a man, you simply made that up because its the only way you can reconcile your trinitarian dogma with scripture, that is by introducing other non scriptural elements to make it appear to say what you want it to say, when in fact its not stated at all, nor even inferred.
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    18 Feb '15 04:583 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I am uninterested in this, been through it a million times, wont be going through it again. The fact of the matter is the scripture explicitly states that Jesus does not recognise that he is good and in fact make the claim that only God is good. There is no mention that its reference to Jesus as an alleged God or Jesus as a man, you simply made tha ...[text shortened]... it appear to say what you want it to say, when in fact its not stated at all, nor even inferred.
    I am uninterested in this, been through it a million times, wont be going through it again.


    The truth is not measured by how loud your yawn is. Argument by Boredom or Disinterest just doesn't make Christ not God become man.


    The fact of the matter is the scripture explicitly states that Jesus does not recognize that he is good and in fact make the claim that only God is good.



    But if Jesus DOES NOT teach that He is GOOD then why did He say -

    "Which of you convicts Me of sin? Since I speak the trith, why do you not believe Me?" (John 8:46)

    If you'll notice Jesus did not say here "Which of you convicts GOD of sin" but "Which of you convicts ME of sin?".

    So Jesus did not teach that He was NOT good.
    He reminded the questioner that no one is good except God.


    There is no mention that its reference to Jesus as an alleged God or Jesus as a man, you simply made that up because its the only way you can reconcile your trinitarian dogma with scripture, that is by introducing other non scriptural elements to make it appear to say what you want it to say, when in fact its not stated at all, nor even inferred.


    No, I am doing what should be done. And that is to consider the whole of revelation of the New Testament and the Bible.

    You have a passage in which Jesus says something. And you want to argue that BECAUSE He said this .... therefore He DID NOT SAY something else.

    He testified that He was man.
    He testified that He was God.

    He did not always speak to both matters at the same moment.
    The Gospels of Matthrew, Mark, Luke, and John each want to underscore a certain aspect of WHO Jesus Christ is respectively. That was of God because a profound Person needs four snapshots from four angles as to His nature.
    And it is proper to take in the whole scope of all things Christ spoke and did.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    18 Feb '15 06:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command - Calvin the murderer.
    God also condemns the wicked, but does not consider Himself a murderer. Do you consider God a murder because of bringing about the worldwide flood or anything else He did like sonhouse does?

    There is no evidence that John Calvin ever laid a hand on Servetus nor demand that he be put to death at the stake or had any authority to do so. So I don't see how Calvin could be declared the murderer of Servetus. Servetus was convicted of a crime and the penalty for that time was administered by the one in charge, which certainly was not Calvin, whose recommendation was not followed.
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    18 Feb '15 09:551 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    God also condemns the wicked, but does not consider Himself a murderer. Do you consider God a murder because of bringing about the worldwide flood or anything else He did like sonhouse does?

    There is no evidence that John Calvin ever laid a hand on Servetus nor demand that he be put to death at the stake or had any authority to do so. So I don't see how ...[text shortened]... red by the one in charge, which certainly was not Calvin, whose recommendation was not followed.
    I do not consider God a murderer, he as the father of life has the right to take life, Calvin had no right to take anyone's life, that makes him a murderer.

    If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight." Calvin the murderer
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    18 Feb '15 22:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I do not consider God a murderer, he as the father of life has the right to take life, Calvin had no right to take anyone's life, that makes him a murderer.

    If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight." Calvin the murderer
    You seem to ignore the fact that Servetus was convicted of a crime punishable by death at that time. Under your logic, the judge, prosecutor, witnesses, and jury that convicted somebody of a crime punishable by the death penalty is guilty of murder. That seems an insane postion to take too me.
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