1. Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    22 Aug '11 17:523 edits
    Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, and that it is easier for a "camel" to go through the "eye of a needle" than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25, and Luke 18:24-25.

    Is it possible that there is a mistranslation in the Bible, and that the Bible is not 100% accurate? That the Greek word camel (kamilos) is almost identical to the Greek word rope (kamêlos). And the word was mistranslated as camel instead of rope.

    It is easier for a "rope" to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

    It is easier for a "camel" to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

    Doesn't "rope" really make more sense and a better fit than "camel" in the metaphor?
  2. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86356
    22 Aug '11 18:07
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, and that it is easier for a "camel" to go through the "eye of a needle" than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25, and Luke 18:24-25.

    Is it possible that there is a mistranslation in the Bible, and that the Bible is not 100% accurate? That the Gr ...[text shortened]... oesn't "rope" really make more sense and a better fit than "camel" in the metaphor?
    There are many translations of the Bible; they can't all be word perfect translations.
  3. St. Peter's
    Joined
    06 Dec '10
    Moves
    11308
    22 Aug '11 18:58
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, and that it is easier for a "camel" to go through the "eye of a needle" than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25, and Luke 18:24-25.

    Is it possible that there is a mistranslation in the Bible, and that the Bible is not 100% accurate? That the Gr ...[text shortened]... oesn't "rope" really make more sense and a better fit than "camel" in the metaphor?
    the "eye of the needle" was a city gate in ancient times shaped like the eye of a needle. When the city gates were closed for the evening the only way a traveler could enter was by the eye of the needle. The gate was barely large enough for a full grown man to walk through. A camel would have to be unpacked and would need to crawl through on its knees. Most camels were not trained for this, so it was unlikely that a traveler would attempt it.
  4. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    22 Aug '11 20:01
    Originally posted by Doward
    the "eye of the needle" was a city gate in ancient times shaped like the eye of a needle. When the city gates were closed for the evening the only way a traveler could enter was by the eye of the needle. The gate was barely large enough for a full grown man to walk through. A camel would have to be unpacked and would need to crawl through on its knees. Most camels were not trained for this, so it was unlikely that a traveler would attempt it.
    The "City Gate" story has no historical evidence for it (though it has been put forward as fact for a long, long time. Another explanation is of a mountain pass which travellers used that at one point narrowd and was known as the "eye of the needle".

    The more likely explanation is it is a reworking of an older saying about elephants going through the eye of a needle (ie an impossibility)

    Christians debate the "eye of a needle" story because it is ambiguous whether or not jesus was discussing something difficult or impossible.
  5. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    22 Aug '11 20:47
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    The "City Gate" story has no historical evidence for it (though it has been put forward as fact for a long, long time. Another explanation is of a mountain pass which travellers used that at one point narrowd and was known as the "eye of the needle".

    The more likely explanation is it is a reworking of an older saying about elephants going through the e ...[text shortened]... use it is ambiguous whether or not jesus was discussing something difficult or impossible.
    It is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
    Joined
    24 Jan '11
    Moves
    12694
    22 Aug '11 21:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    It is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.
    And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to
    enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go
    through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
    When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who
    can be saved?” And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is
    impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    (Matthew 19:23-26 NASB)
  7. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86356
    22 Aug '11 21:18
    Originally posted by rwingett
    It is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.
    Even a rich socialist?
  8. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    22 Aug '11 21:24
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Even a rich socialist?
    Even jumbo shrimp?
  9. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    22 Aug '11 21:32
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to
    enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go
    through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
    When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who
    can be saved?” And looking at them ...[text shortened]... people this is
    impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    (Matthew 19:23-26 NASB)
    You can quibble about how hard 'hard' is, but I say the very nature of the kingdom precludes the admission of rich men. Mind you, though, my definition of all the terms involved is not of the standard variety.
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35525
    22 Aug '11 22:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    You can quibble about how hard 'hard' is, but I say the very nature of the kingdom precludes the admission of rich men. Mind you, though, my definition of all the terms involved is not of the standard variety.
    I have admired your leftist tilt for years here. Your atheist views, not so much.

    Imagine a Christian version of your leftist views and that's pretty much me.

    Well, maybe with a few different other parts. 🙂
  11. Standard memberpyxelated
    Dawg of the Lord
    The South
    Joined
    23 Aug '08
    Moves
    5442
    23 Aug '11 00:14
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I have admired your leftist tilt for years here. Your atheist views, not so much.

    Imagine a Christian version of your leftist views and that's pretty much me.

    Well, maybe with a few different other parts. 🙂
    Not exactly "leftist," but an excellent commentary on this passage and others relating to money and the Christian life: "Happy are You Poor" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
  12. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    23 Aug '11 01:471 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I have admired your leftist tilt for years here. Your atheist views, not so much.

    Imagine a Christian version of your leftist views and that's pretty much me.

    Well, maybe with a few different other parts. 🙂
    As an atheist, my beef with Christians these days is restricted primarily to conservative Christians. Whether someone believes in god, in and of itself, is of little concern to me. Unlike many other atheists on this forum, I no longer have any interest in bashing all religious belief, but restrict my bashing to the more conservative manifestations of that belief. If some of the more antiquated mythology and any pretense of certainty were to be dropped, I might even concede that Christianity may have some social utility. It's emphasis on social justice (which too many Christians choose to ignore) may be its saving grace.
  13. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86356
    23 Aug '11 05:391 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    As an atheist, my beef with Christians these days is restricted primarily to conservative Christians. Whether someone believes in god, in and of itself, is of little concern to me. Unlike many other atheists on this forum, I no longer have any interest in bashing all religious belief, but restrict my bashing to the more conservative manifestations of that b mphasis on social justice (which too many Christians choose to ignore) may be its saving grace.
    Assuming that social justice is exists only within the framework of your preconceived socialist viewpoint makes you sound more extreme than those who get berated for their spiritual beliefs.
  14. Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    23 Aug '11 07:37
    Originally posted by divegeester
    There are many translations of the Bible; they can't all be word perfect translations.
    But it is the word of God. Man wrote and translated the Bible through God. Is God inaccurate sometimes. Is the Bible inaccurate sometimes. And if so, how do you pcik and choose which passages in the Bible are inaccurate.
  15. Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    23 Aug '11 07:42
    Originally posted by Doward
    the "eye of the needle" was a city gate in ancient times shaped like the eye of a needle. When the city gates were closed for the evening the only way a traveler could enter was by the eye of the needle. The gate was barely large enough for a full grown man to walk through. A camel would have to be unpacked and would need to crawl through on its knees. Most camels were not trained for this, so it was unlikely that a traveler would attempt it.
    The original Greek tells not of a camel, but a rope (kamilos ). When it was translated into Latin, kamilos was confused with kamelos (camel).

    This translation error has been perpetuated into almost every language in which the Scriptures has been printed.
Back to Top