Can God make a rock that He cannot lift?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree with you in part, yes He has the ability but He is not restrained due to a "secret plan" as you say. I believe He is restrained because of His honor, His righteousness, because He is holy.
He has the ability to stop Satan but is restrained because all authority was passed to Satan, legally, by Adam.
When he tempted Jesus, he offered Jesus all t ...[text shortened]... y lake along with his host(demons) and those who chose not to believe in our Savior.

I don't recall saying God is restrained by a plan. He can discard his secret plan at anytime, however, I do not see any likelihood of that happening. God allowed free-will because of His secret plan that Satan did not understand and of course we do not understand, because God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours. But it seems this plan has to do with Love and Truth to me. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
that depends on how you define god. the answer could be yes or no.

if you define god with limitations then the answer would be yes.
if you define god as omnipotent, the answer is no.

I disagree... "omnipotent" doesn't suggest to me the capability to do all that is either logically possible or not logically possible (i.e. illogical); indeed if we went down that road then we'd have to agree that omnipotence implies no omnipotence (since we can ask "does an omnipotent god have the power to also be not omnipotent at the same time?" and, since we are admitting the logically impossible, we'd be committed to answer this in the affirmative)

As for some theoretically all powerful god lifting rocks; given there should be no upper bound on the weight of rocks this being can lift then there exist no rocks created, or yet to be created that it cannot lift, then the proposition that
a rock so heavy it cannot be lived by a god with the power to do anything logically possible can be created by this god
is itself illogical.

As such, I say an omnipotent god cannot create a rock so heavy it cannot lift, and furthermore, its omnipotence is not retarded in any sense by this "limitation".

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I was once asked this question. Can God make a rock/stone so big He could not lift it?
Your thoughts? This actually will lead to another very big question.

It cannot - see my response to VoidSpirit.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The site has merit, but I can build something I could not lift, so does not the question still apply? They also miss the point God cannot lie.
The bigger question is this....Is God in total control of every thing that happens?

They also miss the point God cannot lie.
This is true only if *you*(or other non-"G"od creatures) define this "G"od to be incapable of lying. However if some god does exist and supposing your notion of "G"od is the closest approximation to it, it is still not necessarily true it lacks the potential to lie (perhaps your definition is wrong!).

Even if "G"od personally came down to earth and told us all it cannot lie, there is no way to determine this is itself not a lie. Not even if the Bible says it is not in "G"od's nature to lie!!! (since supposing if it actually was the inspired word of "G"od "H"imself, this claim may also have been a lie)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
highlighting paradoxes in the universe is on the path to understanding

I don't see any paradox...I would consider the question in the OP to be just as meaningless as: "Can an omnipotent "G"od think of an even number that is odd?"

Originally posted by Agerg
I don't see any paradox...I would consider the question in the OP to be just as meaningless as: "Can an omnipotent "G"od think of an even number that is odd?"

Does'nt the question highlight the paradox in the concept of an omnipotent being, your answer to voidspirit seems to conclude that G'od cannot build a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, if the opposite is true, the paradox remains.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Does'nt the question highlight the paradox in the concept of an omnipotent being, your answer to voidspirit seems to conclude that G'od cannot build a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, if the opposite is true, the paradox remains.

But the opposite being true is illogical; and if we are to permit the illogical then weReveal Hidden Contentcannot have confidence in any properties attached to "G"od (since the only criterion for "G"od having property X is merely that someone can articulate X somehow! (such an X might be a square triangle for example)).

As such I'm not seeing a paradox here anymore than I see a paradox in the question as to whether odd numbers can also be even

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree... "omnipotent" doesn't suggest to me the capability to do all that is either logically possible or not logically possible (i.e. illogical); indeed if we went down that road then we'd have to agree that omnipotence implies no omnipotence (since we can ask "does an omnipotent god have the power to also be not omnipotent at the same time?" and, ...[text shortened]... ft, and furthermore, its omnipotence is not retarded in any sense by this "limitation".

you don't disagree.

to the question of " Can God make a rock/stone so big He could not lift it? "

me: "if you define god as omnipotent, the answer is no."

you:"As such, I say an omnipotent god cannot create a rock so heavy it cannot lift, and furthermore, its omnipotence is not retarded in any sense by this "limitation"."

we are in complete agreement.

Originally posted by Agerg
It cannot - see my response to VoidSpirit.

the best paradoxical argument i've heard is from agustus who ponders 'can god make himself not-omnipotent?' he argues that god cannot do so and falls into a paradox.

the simple solution to that is 'yes' god could make himself not-omnipotent. but there would be no coming back from that decision. no paradox at all.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you don't disagree.

to the question of " Can God make a rock/stone so big He could not lift it? "

me: "if you define god as omnipotent, the answer is no."

you:"As such, I say an omnipotent god [b]cannot create a rock so heavy it cannot lift, and furthermore, its omnipotence is not retarded in any sense by this "limitation"."

we are in complete agreement.[/b]

Hmm...one minute (may have mis-read your post)...

damnit - In my head the "yes" and "no" got swapped wrt to what you said in the post I responded to! sorry about that 😵

Originally posted by Agerg
Hmm...one minute (may have mis-read your post)...

damnit - In my head the "yes" and "no" got swapped wrt to what you said in the post I responded to! sorry about that 😵

yup. see that blank post of mine? i also misread your reply had to err.. quickly silence the mistake before anyone noticed. 😕

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
the best paradoxical argument i've heard is from agustus who ponders 'can god make himself not-omnipotent?' he argues that god cannot do so and falls into a paradox.

the simple solution to that is 'yes' god could make himself not-omnipotent. but there would be no coming back from that decision. no paradox at all.

Well there is certainly a paradox (well more an absurd or illogical state) (as I mentioned in my first response to you here) if we supposeReveal Hidden Content that it could be both O and ¬O; and I agree that supposing it can go from O to ¬O (with no point of overlap) leaves us with no paradox.

Not sure I agree there is no way back (at least in general). Indeed supposing some god decided it will remove its capability to paint apples turquoise (and left everything else unchanged), then even though the set of things it can do is infinite, this set is still a proper subset of the things it could do before and so it is no longer omnipotent. but it isn't obvious to me that it can no longer remove the constraint denying it from painting apples turquoise (reinstating omnipotence)

Originally posted by Agerg
Well there is certainly a paradox (well more an absurd or illogical state) (as I mentioned in my first response to you here) if we suppose[hidden]let O = \"omnipotence\"[/hidden] that it could be [b]both O and ¬O; and I agree that going from O to ¬O (with no point of overlap) leaves us with no paradox.

Not sure I agree there is no way back (at least in ...[text shortened]... r remove the constraint denying it from painting apples turquoise (reinstating omnipotence)[/b]

hum. if he can remove the constraint, than i don't think we can categorize the placing of the constraint as losing omnipotence, since he retains omniscience (and hence the memory of having once had the ability to paint apples turquoise) and can remove the constraint.

i suppose to truly lose omnipotence, god would also have to lose omniscience. to go from O to ¬O in a permanent manner, he would have to place the constraint to paint apples turquoise and forever lose the memory of having placed the constraint.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
hum. if he can remove the constraint, than i don't think we can categorize the placing of the constraint as losing omnipotence, since he retains omniscience (and hence the memory of having once had the ability to paint apples turquoise) and can remove the constraint.

i suppose to truly lose omnipotence, god would also have to lose omniscience. to go ...[text shortened]... nstraint to paint apples turquoise and forever lose the memory of having placed the constraint.

Ok...but then acknowledging the point about memory, is it not possible (in theory) that it could impose some constraint C denyingReveal Hidden Contentitself both the ability of P, and the memory of C (and action P) for some finite length of "time"?Reveal Hidden Content

In this case it would certainly be powerless to do P! and then after some length of time has elapsed - the constraint vanishes (and possibly the memory of imposing it returns), whence it is no longer powerless to do P.