Can information increase?

Originally posted by yousers
The standard answer to your question is "yes" from the scientific viewpoint. Random processes cannot increase information content according to the laws of thermodynamics, but we can increase information content in a subsystem by creating disorder in another. The process that is proposed to do this is natural selection. Selection does, however, have limi ...[text shortened]... hat it can do. Whether or not it can generate something like the DNA code of life is debatable.

but we can increase information content in a subsystem by creating disorder in another.

Without using intelligence?

Can computer programs which humans have built to have intelligence increase information?

Originally posted by PotatoError
Can computer programs which humans have built to have intelligence increase information?

Computer programs use 'artificial intelligence.'

I don't see your point though.

Can programs humans have built increase information?

My point is to narrow down the definition of this information thing.

Originally posted by PotatoError
Can programs humans have built increase information?

My point is to narrow down the definition of this information thing.

If they could they would be doing it because of 'intelligent intervention', ie. human's having designed them.

Besides, I don't know of a computer program in which you can insert millions of letters from the alphabet in a random sequence which will re-arrange the letters into useful information, e.g. such as Shakespeare's works. Yet many people believe that this can simply happen by chance without intelligent intervention. That is exactly what I am questioning.

Then how do you know that nature and evolution is not the equivelant of a computer program built by God?

Besides, I don't know of a computer program in which you can insert millions of letters from the alphabet in a random sequence which will re-arrange the letters into useful information

Genetic algorithms do this. Some problem, often an optimisation problem and a string representation for the solution. The algorithm starts with a random string solution which is highly ineffective and uses mutation and natural selection to "re-arrange the letters" into useful information.

Originally posted by PotatoError
Then how do you know that nature and evolution is not the equivelant of a computer program built by God?

[b]Besides, I don't know of a computer program in which you can insert millions of letters from the alphabet in a random sequence which will re-arrange the letters into useful information

Genetic algorithms do this. Some problem, often an o ...[text shortened]... e and uses mutation and natural selection to "re-arrange the letters" into useful information.[/b]

Then how do you know that nature and evolution is not the equivelant of a computer program built by God?

Because nature and evolution does not contain intelligence. i.e. the ability to produce order from chaos in such an extent as to produce life from non-life.

Genetic algorithms do this. Some problem, often an optimisation problem and a string representation for the solution. The algorithm starts with a random string solution which is highly ineffective and uses mutation and natural selection to "re-arrange the letters" into useful information.

True. But is there is system in the universe that produces order from chaos by random chance without intelligent intervention?

Originally posted by dj2becker
But is there is system in the universe that produces order from chaos by random chance without intelligent intervention?

Yes, there is. If you take some steam, pretty random ordering of the molecules, then cool it down, it condenses into a sort of splurgy ordered form, water. Cool this down yet again and rearranges itself into nice, ordered ice crystals. Order from disorder, no human intervention required. QED

(The order of the universe has been reduced overall, as the steam gives out heat when it condenses, which disorders the air more than the order gained by the water, but if your just concerned with the steam molecules, they have become more ordered.)

Originally posted by corp1131
Yes, there is. If you take some steam, pretty random ordering of the molecules, then cool it down, it condenses into a sort of splurgy ordered form, water. Cool this down yet again and rearranges itself into nice, ordered ice crystals. Order from disorder, no human intervention required. QED

(The order of the universe has been reduced overall, as the ...[text shortened]... he water, but if your just concerned with the steam molecules, they have become more ordered.)

True. But the question at hand is whether such a system is capable of producing life from non-life. I don't see how such a system is capable of producing any life forms from a couple of chemicals in a puddle.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]but we can increase information content in a subsystem by creating disorder in another.

Without using intelligence?[/b]

From a modern scientist's point of view - yes. All you need is natural selection and the other accepted modes of evolution acting on random mutations.

Just a footnote - there have been many computer simulations performed by non-creationists on large scales to recreate the evolution of DNA to what we see today. Obviously, computer scientists can never incorporate ALL variables that were present over the last few billion years. But, I would like to point out that many of these attempts have failed miserably and even led to further chaos and disorder than they started with. One such attempt was that of Murray Eden adn Marcel Schutzenberger at MIT, 1965.
Schutzenberger:
"There is a considerable gap in the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and we believe this gap to be of such a nature that it cannot be bridged within the current conception of biology" -conference at Wistar Institute 1966

Originally posted by yousers
From a modern scientist's point of view - yes. All you need is natural selection and the other accepted modes of evolution acting on random mutations.

Just a footnote - there have been many computer simulations performed by non-creatio ...[text shortened]... rrent conception of biology" -conference at Wistar Institute 1966

1965? They probably had trouble because computers sucked so much then? Do you have any 21st century examples?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Then how do you know that nature and evolution is not the equivelant of a computer program built by God?

Because nature and evolution does not contain intelligence. i.e. the ability to produce order from chaos in such an extent as to produce life from non-life.

But if God intelligently designed evolution then doesn't that mean evolution has some sort of inherent intelligence of some kind? In which case doesn't that mean evolution can produce order from chaos?

But is there is system in the universe that produces order from chaos by random chance without intelligent intervention?

Gravity: rather than randomly flying about, matter is pulled into ordered orbiting systems.

Because nature and evolution does not contain intelligence. i.e. the ability to produce order from chaos in such an extent as to produce life from non-life.

By that definition of intelligence, all higher mammals, including humans, lack intelligence.

Originally posted by telerion
1965? They probably had trouble because computers sucked so much then? Do you have any 21st century examples?

I am sorry. Eden and Schutzenberger were working with probabilities aided by computers, not with strictly computer simulations as I lied earlier.
You know, I had a heck of a time finding a current example. Perhaps I should not have opened my mouth in the first place, haha. I have found that there are many simulations of selection processes, but it is claimed that none are truly realistic representations of natural selection AND capable of showing information content increase at the rate necessary for life to evolve.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]but we can increase information content in a subsystem by creating disorder in another.

Without using intelligence?[/b]

Yes, as the rest of the post said, by offsetting the order from another subsystem. The other subsystem would have a larger increase in disorder. A measure of the total order in all the systems would show an increase in disorder.

Order is really a form of potential energy - potential energy is energy that can be converted to heat or work. An increase in order is an increase in potential energy. If we can add energy to a subsystem, we can increase the order of the subsystem or increase the heat. Not all of the added energy will be converted to order, most of it will be converted into heat and will come out of the system in that form.


Consider a closed system. We have mass and energy in the system - and nothing can be added or removed in the form of mass or energy. Total energy and massed are constant.

Now in our closed system we have a block of wood and oxygen gas. The wood has potential energy that can be released by burning it. When we allow the wood to burn in the system - we change the potential energy into heat, and we rearrange the elements into new molecules. The wood molecules are turned into carbon-dioxide and water vapor. The total energy and the total mass does not change, but the disorder has increased greatly. And this increase in disorder in not reversible. To convert the carbon-dioxide and water vapor back into wood molecules is impossible within our close system. This is the law of entropy. Going from disorder (heat, carbon-dioxide and water vapor) to order (wood molecules and oxygen gas) is impossible within a closed system.

But we know that wood becomes wood through other processes. We know that the basic elements (carbon-dioxide and water) were combined by complex processes by adding large amounts of energy from the Sun. The wood is like a battery - simply stored (potential) energy. But it takes much more energy to convert the simple elements into wood molecules, then will be converted in heat energy when it burns.

For subsystem Earth, the energy of the Sun is added in order to increase potential energy (order). But if you take all the energy of the Sun, and the energy of the planets and space around the Sun, the total order of the whole system is decreasing. The potential energy of the Sun is decreasing as it releases radiation (the Sun burns like wood) and some of the radiation fuels a small gain of order on the Earth.

So any time you think of the idea of increasing order - it's really the increase of potential energy. You can do it, but you will use more energy to increase the potential energy then you will get out of it.