1. Standard membermenace71
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    15 Mar '10 22:06
    I'm to argue that most of the Jehovah witnesses current doctrine really started with
    Joseph Franklin Rutherford. His anti-Government stance / Anti-nationalistic stance.
    He was jailed not that I agree or disagree with his imprisonment but this helped furthered these views. The charges were dropped as noted.

    Source: Wikipedia (Sure some further confirmation might be needed)

    The Finished Mystery

    In late 1916 two prominent Bible Students at the Brooklyn headquarters, Clayton J. Woodworth and George H. Fisher, sought approval from the Executive Committee to produce a book on the prophecies of the books of Revelation and Ezekiel based primarily on Russell's writings. Work on the book, The Finished Mystery, which was labeled as the posthumous seventh volume of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures, proceeded without the knowledge of the full Board of Directors and Editorial Committee and was released by Rutherford to the Bethel family on July 17, 1917, the day he announced the appointment of four replacement directors.

    Although denounced by Rutherford's opponents, the book was an immediate best-seller, was translated into six languages and serialized in The Watch Tower. Rutherford expected theocratic rule to be established on earth in 1918 and the saints glorified, writing in January 1918: "The Christian looks for the year to bring the full consummation of the church's hopes."He embarked on a vast advertising campaign to expose the "unrighteousness" of religions and their alliances with "beastly" governments, expanding on claims in The Finished Mystery that patriotism was a delusion and murder. The campaign attracted the attention of governments and on February 12, 1918 the book was banned by the Canadian government for what a Winnipeg newspaper described as "seditious and antiwar statements" On February 24 in Los Angeles Rutherford gave the first of his talk series "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" in which he attacked the clergy, declaring: "As a class, according to the Scriptures, the clergymen are the most reprehensible men on earth for the great war that is now afflicting mankind."Three days later the Army Intelligence Bureau seized the Society's Los Angeles offices and confiscated literature.

    In early May 1918 US Attorney General Thomas Watt Gregory condemned The Finished Mystery as "one of the most dangerous examples of ... propaganda ... a work written in extremely religious language and distributed in enormous numbers". Days later warrants were issued for the arrest of Rutherford and seven other Watch Tower directors and officers on charges of sedition under the Espionage Act. On June 21 seven of them, including Rutherford, were sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment. Rutherford feared his opponents would gain control of the Society in his absence, but on January 2, 1919 learned he had been re-elected President at the Pittsburgh convention the day before. The victory convinced him that God wanted him as President. In March 1919 the directors were released on bail after an appeals court ruled they had been wrongly convicted and in May 1920 the government announced all charges had been dropped.
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    15 Mar '10 22:231 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    I'm to argue that most of the Jehovah witnesses current doctrine really started with
    Joseph Franklin Rutherford. His anti-Government stance / Anti-nationalistic stance.
    He was jailed not that I agree or disagree with his imprisonment but this helped furthered these views. The charges were dropped as noted.

    Source: Wikipedia (Sure some further confirmat cted and in May 1920 the government announced all charges had been dropped.
    On June 21 seven of them, including Rutherford, were sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment. Rutherford feared his opponents would gain control of the Society in his absence, but on January 2, 1919 learned he had been re-elected President at the Pittsburgh convention the day before. The victory convinced him that God wanted him as President. In March 1919 the directors were released on bail after an appeals court ruled they had been wrongly convicted and in May 1920 the government announced all charges had been dropped.

    They were essentially falsely accused, wrongfully imprisoned and given sentences of up to twenty years in a state prison for printing a distributing literature. Who instigated these charges? Why were they falsely accused and why were these innocent men exonerated.

    Jehovahs Witnesses do not deny nor dismiss this, we are in fact proud of it!
  3. Standard membermenace71
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    15 Mar '10 22:261 edit
    Reorganization and the birth of the theocracy
    [edit] Administrative changes

    On his release from prison, Rutherford began a major reorganization of Bible Student activities. At a May, 1919 convention in Ohio he announced the publication of a new magazine, The Golden Age (today known as Awake!); since Russell's will had decreed the Society should publish no other periodicals the new magazine was at first published by "Woodworth, Hudgings & Martin", with a Manhattan (rather than Brooklyn) address. Within months Bible Students were organized to distribute it door-to-door. He expanded the Society's printing facilities, revived the colporteur work and in 1920 introduced the requirement for weekly reports of Bible Students' preaching activity. He expanded and reorganized overseas branch offices in what he regarded as a "cleansing" and "sifting" work. Beginning with an eight-day assembly at Cedar Point, Ohio in 1922 Rutherford launched a series of major international conventions under the theme "Advertise the King and Kingdom", attracting crowds of up to 20,000, who were urged to "herald the message far and wide". "Behold the King!" Rutherford told them. "You are his publicity agents." He stressed that the prime purpose of all Bible Students was to preach publicly in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14, especially in the form of door-to-door evangelism with the Society's publications.


    A 1920 booklet by Rutherford, Millions Now Living Will Never Die, a best-seller translated into 11 languages including Yiddish, and supported by a major speaking program and newspaper advertisements, predicted the "full restoration of mankind" in 1925 accompanied by the resurrection of Jewish patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Rutherford later admitted "I made an ass of myself" with the prediction, but continued to claim the end of the world was "near at hand".

    In 1921, Rutherford published his first book, The Harp of God, eventually following it up with another nineteen books, each with one-word titles, such as Creation (1927), Jehovah (1934) and Children (1941). His publications reached a total of 36 million copies.

    In 1925 he gained total control over what doctrines would be taught in Watch Tower publications, overruling the refusal by the five-man Editorial Committee to publish his doctrinally revolutionary article, "The Birth of a Nation". Rutherford later claimed Satan had "tried to prevent the publication of that article ... but failed in that effort" and the 1933 Watch Tower Yearbook observed that the subsequent demise of the Editorial Committee indicated "that the Lord himself is running his organization". The committee was removed in 1931 and Rutherford wrote every leading article in The Watch Tower from then until his death.

    Rutherford expanded his means of spreading the Watch Tower message in 1924 with the start of 15-minute radio broadcasts, initially from WBBR, based on Staten Island, and eventually via a network of as many as 480 radio stations. A 1931 talk was broadcast throughout North America, Australia and France, but the virulence of his attacks on the clergy was strong enough to result in both the NBC and BBC radio networks banning him from the airwaves. Later still, in the late 1930s, he advocated the use of "sound cars" and portable phonographs with which talks by Rutherford were played to passersby and householders. (So I did not make this up)

    At a 1931 Bible Student assembly in Columbus, Ohio Rutherford proposed a new name for the organization, Jehovah's witnesses, to differentiate his followers from the proliferation of other groups that followed Russell's teachings. Bible Students who opposed or abandoned Rutherford to form new groups were increasingly described as the "evil servant class" and his followers were told it was wrong to pray for those who were "unfaithful".

    The door-to-door preaching program was extended to formally include "back calls" on interested people and Witnesses were urged to start one-hour Bible studies in the homes of householders. With the increased emphasis on preaching came a stronger push for centralized control of congregations. Service directors, who reported back to Brooklyn, were appointed in each congregation and a weekly "service meeting" introduced to meeting programs. Rutherford impressed on elders the need to obey without complaint "regulations", "instructions" and "directions" from the Society. When many congregations balked at the new regulations, Rutherford from 1928 began a drive to abolish the system of elective congregation elders, dismissing them as "haughty" and "lazy" and asserting in 1932 that the office of elder was unscriptural. In 1938 he introduced the term "theocracy" to describe the government of the religion, with Consolation explaining: "The Theocracy is at present administered by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, of which Judge Rutherford is the president and general manager." "Zone servants" (now known as circuit overseers) were appointed to supervise congregations and in a Watchtower article Rutherford declared the need for congregations to "get in line" with the changed structure.

    By 1942, the year of his death, worldwide attendance at the annual Memorial of Christ's death was 140,450 – more than six times the number attending when he succeeded Russell as Watch Tower president. However his restructuring of the Bible Student community coincided with a dramatic loss of followers during the 1920s and 1930s. Worldwide attendance of the annual Memorial of Christ's death fell from 90,434 in 1925 to 17,380 in 1928. Memorial attendance figures did not surpass 90,000 again until 1940. Author Tony Wills, who analyzed attendance and "field worker" statistics, suggests it was the "more dedicated" Bible Students who quit through the 1920s, to be replaced by newcomers in larger numbers, although Rutherford dismissed the loss of the original Bible Students as the Lord "shaking out" the unfaithful. In the 1942 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, Rutherford wrote that the year's achievements "would, on the face of it, show that the Theocratic witness work on earth is about done".

    The man was dynamic no doubt. I think it fascinating no doubt.
    However I can't make this stuff up so yes I guilty of having a poor imagination.
    I love the word virulence.

    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 22:331 edit
    So RC you would be more a student of Rutherford then Russell? I notice you take a strong anti-nationalistic stance. I would venture to go as far as your theology is directly from Rutherford's. While the bible does not promote nationalism it does say to obey governments because no government stands but God put it there. Also God uses government as a sword against criminals to fear!




    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 22:55
    According to Wills, Rutherford emerged from prison in 1919 bitter against the world and the collusion he saw between the clergy and military that had secured his imprisonment. Soon after his release he coined the term "Satan's organization" to refer to this supposed conspiracy. In Watchtower articles Rutherford was similarly scathing towards big business, politics and the League of Nations. Rogerson describes Rutherford's attitude towards the clergy – his avowed enemies – as "unadulterated hatred". His attacks on clergymen, particularly Catholics, from the late 1920s were strong enough to attract a ban on his broadcasts by the NBC radio network, which condemned his "rabid attack upon organized religion and the clergy". He also applied criticizing terms to those who had deserted Watch Tower ranks, applying the biblical description of "evil servant" to those who had left and opposed his teachings. He urged followers to view with contempt such ones who had "openly rebelled against God's order or commandments" and also described as "despicable" elective elders of the 1930s who refused to submit to Watch Tower Society administrative changes.

    Wills argues that Rutherford seemed to relish describing how completely the wicked would be destroyed at Armageddon, dwelling at great length on prophecies of destruction. He claims that towards the close of his ministry Rutherford spent about half of each year's Watchtowers writing about Armageddon.

    According to Penton, Rutherford's austerity – evidenced by his distaste for Christmas, birthday parties and other popular customs that were described as of pagan origin or that encouraged creature worship and hence not to be celebrated or practiced – led in turn to austerity becoming a part of Witness life. Congregational singing was also halted in 1938 (and reinstated soon after Rutherford's death).

    Rutherford's books and magazine articles reveal his strong views on "the proper place of women" in the church and society. In a 1931 book he linked the post-1919 rise of women's movements that encouraged equality of the sexes to satanic influence and claimed the custom of men tipping their hats to women or standing when a woman approached was a scheme of the devil to turn men from God and indicated an effeminate streak in men who practiced the custom. Mother's Day was similarly described as part of a plan to turn people away from God. In 1938 he urged followers to delay marriage and child-bearing until after Armageddon, which Wills claims prompted a strong community bias among Witnesses against marriage. Those who did marry, says Wills, were considered to be weak in faith. At a 1941 convention in Missouri he quoted Rudyard Kipling's description of women as "a rag and a bone and a hank of hair".

    Former Jehovah's Witness and former Governing Body member Raymond Franz claims there is no evidence Rutherford engaged in door-to-door ministry though he said this was a requirement and sacred duty of all Witnesses. A. H. Macmillan related details of Rutherford's home preaching in 1905 or 1906 when he was baptized and a 1975 article quoted several Witnesses relating their experiences with Rutherford in the house-to-house ministry in the 1920s. The official history of Jehovah's Witnesses notes, "Rutherford personally shared with other conventioners as they engaged in the work of Kingdom proclamation from house to house". Raymond Franz claims to have heard Rutherford's associates say "his responsibilities as president do not permit his engaging in this activity".

    Sucked to be a women apparently. Some question as to whether Rutherford actually did any door to door preaching. How silly about the part of men tipping their hats for women. Also mother's day man that is pagan no doubt!! 😉 Rutherford's doctrine was not of God at all just silly and to what ever tangent he was on at the time. Him and Russell would have been enemies no doubt and split.

    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 23:041 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    So RC you would be more a student of Rutherford then Russell? I notice you take a strong anti-nationalistic stance. I would venture to go as far as your theology is directly from Rutherford's. While the bible does not promote nationalism it does say to obey governments because no government stands but God put it there. Also God uses government as a sword against criminals to fear!




    Manny
    They were essentially falsely accused, wrongfully imprisoned and given sentences of up to twenty years in a state prison for printing a distributing literature. Who instigated these charges? Why were they falsely accused and why were these innocent men exonerated. Please tell the forum Manny if you know anything about it, which i know you dont.

    As for Nationalism it is understood that it has been a force for destruction and utilised by Hitler, Stalin and a whole host of other disreputable characters to foment war and the extolling of one nation above another, clearly in opposition to the revealed word of God, which states that he is not partial,

    (Acts 10:34-35) . . .At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial,  but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

    i wonder if the clergy of Christendom ever dwelt on this scripture when they were asking God to bless the troops and armaments in their bloody wars which claimed the lives of literally millions of innocent men and women. But hey I am surprised a so called Christian actually tries to defend it.

    As for subjection to the superior authorities as set out in scripture at Romans chapter thirteen, it is well understood that it is a relative subjection, in that we obey the superior authorities as long as they do not contravene Gods laws. This is also biblically established by a precedent set by the Apostles of Christ, who when ordered to stop preaching sated that they must obey God as ruler rather than men,

    (Acts 5:27-29) . . .So they brought them and stood them in the Sanhedrin hall. And the high priest questioned them  and said: “We positively ordered you not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”  In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

    Peter and John quite obviously disobeying the 'superior authorities', because they had overstepped the commandment of God.

    Its a pity of course the clergy of Christendom and their members dont heed Christs admonition to preach the good news of Gods kingdom as directed by Christ as recorded in Gods word, yet find it expedient to jail on false charges innocent ministers of Christ who do. I ma glad you brought the matter to the attention of the forum so that they may see the calibre of people who were responsible for these injustices. Now Manny tell the forum who instigated the false charges and why. If you dont i will.
  7. Standard membermenace71
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    15 Mar '10 23:11
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    They were essentially falsely accused, wrongfully imprisoned and given sentences of up to twenty years in a state prison for printing a distributing literature. Who instigated these charges? Why were they falsely accused and why were these innocent men exonerated. Please tell the forum Manny if you know anything about it, which i know you dont.

    As ...[text shortened]... ustices. Now Manny tell the forum who instigated the false charges and why. If you dont i will.
    I agree to some extent but God recognizes the nations even in the book of revelation.
    The Nations were if you will founded by God. Men live in there places and if the story of Tower of Babel is true God wanted men to spread out into there own nations. Noah's sons became the Semites and the Hamites ect you get the point. God recognizes the nations.


    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 23:17
    Personal life
    Beth Sarim ("House of the Princes"😉 was built in San Diego, California in 1930 for soon to be resurrected Old Testament "princes." Rutherford used it as a winter home.

    Rutherford married Mary Fetzer, of Cooper County, Missouri, in 1890. Their only child, Malcolm, was born on November 10, 1892. The couple separated after he became president of the Watch Tower Society.

    In 1929, funds were privately donated to allow the construction of Beth Sarim, (House of the Princes), a residence at San Diego, California for the stated purpose of housing the prophets and "faithful men of old", who had been expected to be physically resurrected in 1925. Rutherford, who is said to have lost the use of one lung after suffering pneumonia during his imprisonment, began spending his winters at the residence and later spent most of his time there. Rutherford resided at the villa in his last years of ill health until his death in 1942. The villa was sold in 1948, with The Watchtower declaring, "It had fully served its purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to keep."

    The standard of Rutherford's accommodation and his private conduct attracted public criticism from within Witness ranks twice in the late 1930s. In a public letter to Rutherford in April 1937, ousted Watch Tower Society Canada branch manager Walter F. Salter claimed that, in contrast with the lifestyle of pioneers, Rutherford had a luxuriously furnished New York apartment, palatial residence and another abode on Staten Island, as well as Beth Sarim and "commodious and expensive quarters" in Magdeburg, Germany, as well as two 16-cylinder cars. Salter – who was disfellowshipped the same year – made repeated claims in the letter that Rutherford was a heavy drinker. In July 1939 Olin R. Moyle, legal counsel for the Society, wrote an open letter of resignation to the president to complain about behavior of some members of the Bethel family, including Rutherford himself, that he considered excessive and inappropriate. Moyle cited Beth Sarim as one of the examples of "the difference between the accommodations furnished to you, and your personal attendants, compared with those furnished to some of your brethren." (Among other things, Moyle also accused Rutherford of "unkind treatment of the staff, outbursts of anger, discrimination and vulgar language" and condemned him for his allowance of the "glorification of alcohol" at Bethel). Penton cites unnamed former Brooklyn Bethel workers to support his claim that Rutherford was frequently inebriated.

    Interesting the man drove 16 cly cars LOL the equivalent to SUV's I would say 🙂
    He lived an opulent lifestyle is this not what you and of course he accused Christendom of? A hypocrite no doubt!! I would love to see Beth Sarim for sure.

    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 23:21
    Originally posted by menace71
    I agree to some extent but God recognizes the nations even in the book of revelation.
    The Nations were if you will founded by God. Men live in there places and if the story of Tower of Babel is true God wanted men to spread out into there own nations. Noah's sons became the Semites and the Hamites ect you get the point. God recognizes the nations.


    Manny
    you are confusing the formation of nations with nationalism, please look up the term.

    shall you not answer my questions on who instigated the false imprisonment of these innocent men and why?
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    15 Mar '10 23:284 edits
    Originally posted by menace71
    Personal life
    Beth Sarim ("House of the Princes"😉 was built in San Diego, California in 1930 for soon to be resurrected Old Testament "princes." Rutherford used it as a winter home.

    Rutherford married Mary Fetzer, of Cooper County, Missouri, in 1890. Their only child, Malcolm, was born on November 10, 1892. The couple separated after he became president of? A hypocrite no doubt!! I would love to see Beth Sarim for sure.

    Manny
    ok, now you are slandering someones personality and reputation with second hand gossip. He was a member of the United States judiciary, not a pauper, and why his private life should interest you i do not know? do you also rifle through garbage cans looking for pieces of information, perhaps you steel ladies underwear from clothes lines as well? are you a pervert that you like to meddle in peoples private affairs, a voyeur perhaps?? if you continue to slander his personality with nothing but lewd accusations and gossip that would grace the table of any old housewife starved of tabloid news, you are finished.
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    15 Mar '10 23:311 edit
    The US Government no doubt. I did not say I agreed or disagreed just merely that it was a fact. Obviously in my opinion they were of no real threat to the US government but you have to look at the times. WWI. I guess I would have to read what was written to see if I actually agree that it was sedition or whatever. At this point it's just a fact that they were imprisoned then released as stated. They did however write anti-government things which drew the attention of the US Government. I don't think there was any collusion of clergy and Military as Rutherford thought that's kinda whacky.






    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 23:38
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ok, now you are slandering someones personality and reputation with second hand gossip. He was a member of the United States judiciary, not a pauper, and why his private life should interest you i do not know? do you also rifle through garbage cans looking for pieces of information, perhaps you steel ladies underwear from clothes lines as well? are ...[text shortened]... ossip that would grace the table of any old housewife starved of tabloid news, you are finished.
    It is to be note worthy that He should have practiced what He preached that is why there was dissent among his ranks. I'm just posting what I'm reading. This however is the epitome of hypocrisy you can't deny it. It would be tantamount to you telling me to give up my SUV (which I don't own) and go door to door to preach Yet You did not do any of these things and owned an SUV. I think the early Russellites were and would have been very much against this man's personal life.

    I'm not saying he was not a capable leader just that he was a hypocrite.


    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 23:42
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ok, now you are slandering someones personality and reputation with second hand gossip. He was a member of the United States judiciary, not a pauper, and why his private life should interest you i do not know? do you also rifle through garbage cans looking for pieces of information, perhaps you steel ladies underwear from clothes lines as well? are ...[text shortened]... ossip that would grace the table of any old housewife starved of tabloid news, you are finished.
    Temper temper Why so emotional? Not a very good trait to exhibit if you want people to become JW's. I'm just stating what I'm reading. I like how you always go for sexual innuendo! Why I'm not the Homophobe you seem to be.
    I staying very cool here.




    Manny
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    15 Mar '10 23:42
    Originally posted by menace71
    The US Government no doubt. I did not say I agreed or disagreed just merely that it was a fact. Obviously in my opinion they were of no real threat to the US government but you have to look at the times. WWI. I guess I would have to read what was written to see if I actually agree that it was sedition or whatever. At this point it's just a fact that they w ...[text shortened]... ollusion of clergy and Military as Rutherford thought that's kinda whacky.






    Manny
    what is a fact is they were falsely accused and innocent men were facing up to twenty years in Jail, why you do not recognise this i do not know.


    Consider what Ray H. Abrams wrote after the first world war in his book Preachers Present Arms. In discussing the wartime role of the clergy, he stated: “It is significant that so many clergymen took an aggressive part in trying to get rid of the Russellites. Long-lived religious quarrels and hatreds, which did not receive any consideration in the courts in time of peace, now found their way into the courtroom under the spell of war-time hysteria.”
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    15 Mar '10 23:441 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    Temper temper Why so emotional? Not a very good trait to exhibit if you want people to become JW's. I'm just stating what I'm reading. I like how you always go for sexual innuendo! Why I'm not the Homophobe you seem to be.
    I staying very cool here.




    Manny
    i am also just stating the facts, you are publishing what basically amounts to slanderous tabloid gossip about someone's private life, why are you interested in what a man does in his private life? why are you interested in who he married and what children they have? whether he is separated or not? what type of shirts he wears? i do not know? nor am i angry.
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