cartwheels

Originally posted by knightmeister
A--Maybe she was not able to hear him

He's God. Apparently he's omnipotent. How could she not hear him - it'd be impossible not to, if he spoke to her.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
He's God. Apparently he's omnipotent. How could she not hear him - it'd be impossible not to, if he spoke to her.

You are absolutely right...but....

This is the old free will chestnut again. The question is whether God is going to force himself upon people or not against their will. Of course God could force himself on all of us and make us all robots for Christ in a millisecond , but where would that leave us ? It HAS to be personal choice. God is far more subtle than your childish imagined version of him , and far more respectful of our wishes. He's not looking for robots , but volunteers.

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
Hmm. What do you make of the woman violating the command not to put God to the test?

Jesus doesn't have much use for people who can't bring themselves to believe without signs. See, for example, Matthew 16:4, or Mark 8:11-12.

I think that God's wimping out in this story.

I think it depends on what spirit she prayed in . What were her motives? Did she cry out in desperation in here heart sincerely reaching out to God? Or did she try and goad God into doing something just for the sake of it?

Originally posted by GregM
Um, let's test this. I'm going to imitate another RHPer and demand that God, if he exists and wants to save my soul from eternal damnation, clearly reveal his existence in this thread. Give me a sign, God! Otherwise I will surely burn!

Let's see what happens, shall we?

Ok , gregM , before you go down this road you need to do some heavy soul searching. Are you asking this in some expectation of God answering you , or is it a cynical side swipe at the story and God. If you are mocking God then don't expect much to happen , if your soul seriously is reaching out to God and you are not being dissingenuous (which I seriously doubt) then who knows. The problem you have here is that God knows your heart (better than even you) and he knows exactly how genuine you are being in this post.

I hazzard a guess that there is a huge level of disingenuousness here and that nothing will happen and then you will be able to confirm to yourself (as secretly in your heart you want to) that it's all bunkum.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You are absolutely right...but....

This is the old free will chestnut again. The question is whether God is going to force himself upon people or not against their will. Of course God could force himself on all of us and make us all robots for Christ in a millisecond , but where would that leave us ? It HAS to be personal choice. God is far more sub ...[text shortened]... n of him , and far more respectful of our wishes. He's not looking for robots , but volunteers.

My view of God isn't childish, only coherent.

Look that word up before you ever post again.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think it depends on what spirit she prayed in . What were her motives? Did she cry out in desperation in here heart sincerely reaching out to God? Or did she try and goad God into doing something just for the sake of it?

What's your omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God doing for those sincerely calling out his name in Rwanda, whilst he screws with some stupid, worthless woman in america?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What's your omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God doing for those sincerely calling out his name in Rwanda, whilst he screws with some stupid, worthless woman in america?

No -one is stupid and worthless in God's eyes , even you (LOL)

(I'm only teasing - no offence intended - your question about Rwanda is valid , I would ask though how you happen to know who is sincerely calling out and who isn't )

Originally posted by knightmeister
No -one is stupid and worthless in God's eyes , even you (LOL)

(I'm only teasing - no offence intended - your question about Rwanda is valid , I would ask though how you happen to know who is sincerely calling out and who isn't )

Comparatively, however, she is rather worthless, compared to the millions that die in agony every year.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Comparatively, however, she is rather worthless, compared to the millions that die in agony every year.

I have no simple answers for you on suffering and God's activity in the world. There are only partial answers and incomplete responses. All I can say is two things - the fact that God chose to die in agony within his creation and chose to enter into human suffering is part of the answer , also in Christ suffering is not the end of the story , agony is transcended and followed by ecstasy and redemption. This is God's promise to all men at the end of time , but sometimes parts of it come early. This of course will not be acceptable or palatable to you , and I fully understand this . Suffering is something to be constantly struggled with , but if you want something easy and palatable go and buy some jelly babies and stay away from the cross of christ.

BTW - Why did you think she was american?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have no simple answers for you on suffering and God's activity in the world. There are only partial answers and incomplete responses. All I can say is two things - the fact that God chose to die in agony within his creation and chose to enter into human suffering is part of the answer , also in Christ suffering is not the end of the story , agony is ...[text shortened]... ly babies and stay away from the cross of christ.

BTW - Why did you think she was american?

I thought you said she was American.

As for the rest, it sounds a lot like you are using the excuse of "it's all too complicated" or "God wants it this way" to get off actually doing something about it. God, the ultimate cop-out.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I thought you said she was American.

As for the rest, it sounds a lot like you are using the excuse of "it's all too complicated" or "God wants it this way" to get off actually doing something about it. God, the ultimate cop-out.

No scotty , the biggest cop-out is taking a rigid simplified stance on things that affords no room for doubt or struggle and is self confirming and self congratulatory in nature. It is religious fundamentalism in reverse. Black and white , all or nothing thinking with no interest in anything else but destroying or stopping the opposition (whilst not realising/accepting that sometimes the opposition do have some half decent points).

That's the real cop-out in any position religious or atheist. I'm sorry my God is too "complicated" for you.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why do you say that? Isn't this a bit contradictory to 2.

No it is not contradictory.
I say it is probably false because most of the story is based on hearsay and the vast majority of stories of this nature are false (from previous experience etc).
Also
1. The testimony of someone who does cartwheels at bus stations after hearing voices in his head is suspect.
2. The testimony of a self proclaimed suicidal person is suspect.
3. The testimony of anyone telling a story that they think supports their religious ideas is suspect.
4. The testimony of someone (the woman) who is not named, cannot be traced, whos testimony is second (now third) hand, had clear and obvious reasons for lying etc etc is suspect.

You yourself practically admit that you would spread the story for its "beauty and love" whether or not it is true. Surely both the man who told you and the woman would have similar motives?

Now let me share one of my own stories. Someone I know well and who is a Christian but also believe that witchcraft exists told me this.
When she was young she saw an owl (known to be connected to witchcraft) land on the roof of a house in the middle of the day. Latter that day a freak whirl wind pulled the roof off that same house. She believes that is was the work of witchcraft. Do you believe it was God? Or the devil? Or a coincidence? Or do you doubt the accuracy of the story?

Originally posted by twhitehead
No it is not contradictory.
I say it is probably false because most of the story is based on hearsay and the vast majority of stories of this nature are false (from previous experience etc).
Also
1. The testimony of someone who does cartwheels at bus stations after hearing voices in his head is suspect.
2. The testimony of a self proclaimed suicidal p elieve it was God? Or the devil? Or a coincidence? Or do you doubt the accuracy of the story?

Overall the points you make are valid. I can only say that I have experienced similar (although less dramatic and comical) situations and have heard other things like this within the church.

There are some reasons to think that the story may be false , but there are also other factors to think it may be true. For example , since doing a cartwheel seems quite a silly thing to do and could be met with derision (as would feeling suicidal) then one might not share this with others and keep it to oneself?

(3. The testimony of anyone telling a story that they think supports their religious ideas is suspect. WHITEY)

We all have a belief system of some sort or another and construct reality accordingly , so what?

( 4. The testimony of someone (the woman) who is not named, cannot be traced, whos testimony is second (now third) hand, had clear and obvious reasons for lying etc etc is suspect WHITEY)

All the people can be traced and named but I'm not about to break confidentiality or offer clues as to who I am , we all prefer to remain anonymous don't we?

Overall , because I know of the person telling the story I have an advantage in guessing the authenticity of the story. I also have the advantage in the sense that because I know that God is present amongst us in the form of the Holy Spirit the story doesn't seem that fantastical to me. I understand that from your world view perspective it seems incredible but to me it just seems kind of normal.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No it is not contradictory.
I say it is probably false because most of the story is based on hearsay and the vast majority of stories of this nature are false (from previous experience etc).
Also
1. The testimony of someone who does cartwheels at bus stations after hearing voices in his head is suspect.
2. The testimony of a self proclaimed suicidal p ...[text shortened]... elieve it was God? Or the devil? Or a coincidence? Or do you doubt the accuracy of the story?

Now let me share one of my own stories. Someone I know well and who is a Christian but also believe that witchcraft exists told me this.
When she was young she saw an owl (known to be connected to witchcraft) land on the roof of a house in the middle of the day. Latter that day a freak whirl wind pulled the roof off that same house. She believes that is was the work of witchcraft. Do you believe it was God? Or the devil? Or a coincidence? Or do you doubt the accuracy of the story? WHITEY

I certainly don't believe it was God and I don't think the devil. I would want to know how prevalent owls and whirl winds were and whether other property got damaged. It sounds like a probable co-incidence , the main thing to establish in any story like this or the cartwheel one is what is the purpose of what is being done . For example , when Jesus predicted that Peter would deny him 3 times when the cock crowed the whole point of the story was that Jesus was helping Pter deal with his denial. He was saying "Peter I know that you will deny me and I still forgive you " It was a subtle kind of affirmation and reassurance. It wasn't done for show like a magic trick , that's not what God is about.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Overall , because I know of the person telling the story I have an advantage in guessing the authenticity of the story.

Have you met and talked to the woman?