Originally posted by whodey
Call Obama's spiritual advisor Jim Wallace. In fact, I have the number with me.

Just call, 1-800-barakthemessiah

shouldnt you be at that tea party thing?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I say its the most significant becuase its the one way which determines whether you get salvation or not.

Although I realize that Jesus' followers then as now were mostly concerned about themselves and their selfish desire to gain eternal life, but I can't help feeling, the few times I have read bits of the gospels that Jesus himself was mostly preaching a message of unselfishness.
Just as love can never be love when you are paid to do it, unselfishness can never be unselfish if you do it for selfish reasons.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Although I realize that Jesus' followers then as now were mostly concerned about themselves and their selfish desire to gain eternal life, but I can't help feeling, the few times I have read bits of the gospels that Jesus himself was mostly preaching a message of unselfishness.
Just as love can never be love when you are paid to do it, unselfishness can never be unselfish if you do it for selfish reasons.

If you are so clear eyed and certain about what a proper Christian should live like, then you'll have even heavier explaining to do if the Last Judgment turns out to be real.

( Of course I have no problem doubting its reality )

Prepare to be using your lips to criticize not others but twhitehead before God.

Originally posted by jaywill
It is also important to ascertain -

How Christ will be judge not only of the dead but of the living as well.
How Christ is faithful to all His brothers down to the least of them.
How Christ considers Himself one with His brothers.
How Christ will preserve His brothers through such a troubled time.
How Christ will have a throne of glory [b]on ...[text shortened]... are endless probably, to the one who returns to Scripture again and again with an opened heart.[/b]

I agree and nothing there conflicts with Matt 25.

Can you explain further -- How some people will enter into eternal life who did not know about Christ.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Although I realize that Jesus' followers then as now were mostly concerned about themselves and their selfish desire to gain eternal life, but I can't help feeling, the few times I have read bits of the gospels that Jesus himself was mostly preaching a message of unselfishness.
Just as love can never be love when you are paid to do it, unselfishness can never be unselfish if you do it for selfish reasons.

How is it selfish to desire to gain eternal life?
Can you explain that first, since the rest of your argument and conclusion is based on this flawed assumption ?

And how can an unselfish act be selfish? Dont you think Christ can determine whether or not the act performed was done for selfish reasons? And like I mentioned before, when you are talking about Christianity and the Bible, please use supporting verses from the Bible to back up your views.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The most significant way to remember Christ is stated in Matt 25. I say its the most significant becuase its the one way which determines whether you get salvation or not. People remember Christ in many ways, - by thinking, by praying, by communion and by reading the Bible. Not many remember Christ in the way He asked us and in the way that leads to salvatio ...[text shortened]... d these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. [/quote]

"I say its the most significant becuase its the one way which determines whether you get salvation or not."

So you say!

Okay then, explain what Christ died for. Was it just a big show?

Even if you fed every hungry person in the world, it still wouldn't be enough to gain you salvation. One does not earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift. Feeding the hungry is the right thing to do, but if you think you will be made righteous by doing good works then you are no more than a pharisee.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"I say its the most significant becuase its the one way which determines whether you get salvation or not."

So you say!

Okay then, explain what Christ died for. Was it just a big show?

Even if you fed every hungry person in the world, it still wouldn't be enough to gain you salvation. One does not earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift. F ...[text shortened]... ou think you will be made righteous by doing good works then you are no more than a pharisee.[/b]

Kindly quote some Bible passages to support your interpretation.

I never once said what I thought and what makes one righteous. I simply quoted what Christ and Paul said in very clear language about charity and Love of fellow man and how Christ is going to judge.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Although I realize that Jesus' followers then as now were mostly concerned about themselves and their selfish desire to gain eternal life, but I can't help feeling, the few times I have read bits of the gospels that Jesus himself was mostly preaching a message of unselfishness.
Just as love can never be love when you are paid to do it, unselfishness can never be unselfish if you do it for selfish reasons.

I disagree with you. I think the very first Jesus communities were all about social justice. They were building the 'kingdom of god' on this earth. After Jesus' death, when that kingdom hadn't materialized, the emphasis was shifted from the collective here and now to concern for the individualistic hereafter. It was a profound shift in which people went from being expected to emulate Jesus to being expected to merely believe in Jesus.

Originally posted by rwingett
I disagree with you. I think the very first Jesus communities were all about social justice. They were building the 'kingdom of god' on this earth. After Jesus' death, when that kingdom hadn't materialized, the emphasis was shifted from the collective here and now to concern for the individualistic hereafter. It was a profound shift in which people went from being expected to emulate Jesus to being expected to merely believe in Jesus.

And a good example is the post by JosephW, who claims that I am a Pharisee becuase I am telling people that good works is what Christ commanded us to do in order to get salvation. Christianity has really gone far astray from what Christ taught.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And a good example is the post by JosephW, who claims that I am a Pharisee becuase I am telling people that good works is what Christ commanded us to do in order to get salvation. Christianity has really gone far astray from what Christ taught.

I largely agree with you. My only disagreement would be with the assumption that people do good works in order to get salvation. As though it were a quid pro quo, or that salvation exists apart from the works themself. If, as they say, a good deed is its own reward, then the doing of good works are what salvation is. When you have created an environment where you do good works spontaneously, without regard to their cost, and people respond in kind, then you will know what salvation is. It will not be some childish, ego-centric desire for 'everlasting life', but rather a realization that you are an inseparable part of the whole and that your own salvation is inextricably tied up with the well being of others. Salvation has a collective component that has become almost totally neglected in the quest for an atomized, personal salvation.

Originally posted by rwingett
I largely agree with you. My only disagreement would be with the assumption that people do good works in order to get salvation. As though it were a quid pro quo, or that salvation exists apart from the works themself. If, as they say, a good deed is its own reward, then the doing of good works are what salvation is. When you have created an environm ent that has become almost totally neglected in the quest for an atomized, personal salvation.

From a purely Biblical standpoint there is no reason to think it is wrong to do good works in order to get salvation. The only wrong and selfish aspect of works is that it may be done purely for personal benefit, in which case it cannot be called good works. Its acceptable to do good works in order to attempt to obey Christ's commandments.

Something else which I maintian (and many Christians dont) is that all people are capable of good works becuase their conscience guides them to do it. You dont need to be a Christian to do good works and neither do you need to be a Christian to benefit from the reward associated with performing good works. And the Bible is very clear on that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I agree and nothing there conflicts with Matt 25.

Can you explain further -- How some people will enter into eternal life who did not know about Christ.

==================================
Can you explain further -- How some people will enter into eternal life who did not know about Christ.
===================================

I already did some of that when I explained the difference between the eternal gospel preached by the angel from the air in the great tribulation (Rev. 14:6,7) and the gospel of grace preached by the disciples during the church age.

In the millennium and in eternity the sons of God who are regenerated reign over peoples on the earth. Who are they to reign over ? It does not seem logical that they would reign over one another. So there has to be some people transfered into the millennial kingdom over whom the sons of God are to reign.

The sheep, who inherit "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34) are to enjoy the creation as God prepared it for Adam before his fall. Had Adam not fallen he would have enjoyed an endless life in the good creation from the world's foundation.

The sons of God however are not as Adam was before his fall. They are as Adam would have been had he eaten of the tree of life. This is the blessing of possessing the indwelling life of God. And this blessing is prepared for the sons of from "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4,5) - sonship.

The nations that are transfered from the great tribulation into the millennial kingdom are to be restored to the state Adam was in before he fell. But we must remember that Adam never ate of the tree of life. He was created innocent and with an everlasting life. But he was placed before the tree of life to take God into him.

This "very good" state (Gen. 1:31) is the state that the transfered nations will be restored to by the reigning of the sons of God.

The sons of God were predestined for sonship. This means they have God's life and nature. They reign not over each other but over the sheep peoples of the nations transfered into the millennial kingdom and into the eternal age. This process of restoral of these nations to the state Adam was in before his fall is called "the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2)

The healing is the restoral of peoples to the state of Adam before his fall to enjoy the kingdom prepared for Adam from the foundation of the world. Whereas the healing is performed by the sons of God who were predestined to be sons "BEFORE the foundation of the world" .


To EAT of the tree of life means to take God into the human vessel. To be healed by the leaves of the tree of life is to be blessed by the ministering of the sons of God.

"And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding her its fruit each month, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:2)

To eat of divine life is to take God in. To be healed by the outward conduct of the sons of God who have the divine life, is to be healed by the leaves of the tree of life. The sons of God reign forever and ever. It is not likely that this means they reign over one another.

The restored nations are also said to be the peoples walking in the light of the New Jerusalem.

"Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God." (Rev. 21:3)

The tabernacle is the dwelling place of God. By this time God dwells in the sons of God. So for the tabernacle of God to be with men who are God's "peoples" should mean that around the New Jerusalem there are peoples, ie. nations who walk in the light of the capital city. But the sons of God are "one new man" where there is no longer Jew or Gentile, Greek, Scythian ....

The sons of God, the one new man, the new divine / human corporate body of Christ is among "nations" and God's plural "peoples". These peoples come from the sheep who were saved and told to enter into eternal life. But they were saved not through the receiving of Christ but by the kindness shown to these the least of His brothers.

It seems that they did not know who Christ was. They are probably the same people who respond to the "eternal gospel" to fear God the Creator which gospel does not mention Jesus (Revelation 14:6-7)

But it only mentions that God the Creator who made heaven and earth should be feared and worshipped rather than the Antichrist.

The key to this understanding is probably to realize that Adam had an everlasting life. But he never ate of the tree of life. This means that from the foundation of the world man had an everlasting created life. But God's higher pleasure was the this everlasting man would take into him the tree of life to be mingled with God.

The latter will reign over the former. New Jerusalem represents the latter, the God-men who are united with God through Christ the life of God. The former are the nations around the New Jerusalem as God's plural "peoples" who are healed by the reigning of the sons of God: