Christian support of Zionism

Originally posted by FMF
"...and history"?

History - both biblical and extra-biblical.


What do you believe ? Do you think there is no chosen nation of God ? Is that an opinion you hold ?

Originally posted by jaywill
History - both biblical and extra-biblical.

The Bible was written by the Jews about themselves. What credible extra-biblical non-Jewish historical sources claim that the Jews were God's "Chosen People"?

What do you believe ? Do you think there is no chosen nation of God ? Is that an opinion you hold ?

I have no reason to believe that there is a "chosen nation of God".

Originally posted by FMF
The Bible was written by the Jews about themselves. What credible extra-biblical non-Jewish historical sources claim that the Jews were God's "Chosen People"?

[b]What do you believe ? Do you think there is no chosen nation of God ? Is that an opinion you hold ?

I have no reason to believe that there is a "chosen nation of God".[/b]

The Bible was written by the Jews about themselves.

Job is part of the Bible. It is the oldest book. There is nothing explicit there concerning the nation of Israel as far as I can see.

Genesis contains a number of chapters about mankind in general before the calling of Abraham. Much of the important information written in early Genesis is not explicitly supportive of Israel. (Unless the latter counted geneologies are deemed supportive).

Your question is an interesting project which I may look into someday. I have no reply to your request this afternoon.

Its a tall order.

1.) You tell me up front that you intend not to believe in a chosen people. So I don't think you start out open minded.

2.) That Israel was chosen is a matter of revelation from God. So if [edited] was not learned from the book of God, I don't know how it would be known.

3.) No Bible reference would be considered.

4.) Only non Jewish people would be considered.

This is something like a request to find a contemporary of Jesus who remained an atheist but admitted that Jesus was the Son of God. It is just not likely to happen. But it could. I was reading a book "The Gift of the Jews". It in some sense was non biblical and spoke of their unique contribution of Israel to the rest of the world - if not stating they were God's chosen people.

I think that it could be verified that some non-Jewish enemies and friends of Israel said that there was something unique about the Jews. One might ask why that was so.

Anyway, it is not a requirement that I insist upon. I do not need Gentiles to say "We never heard of any Bible at all. We don't know of such a book. And we believe Israel is THE chosen nation by God."

That is a very tall order which I will not solve for you this afternoon. I might keep my eye out for such a matter as I read things.

It is not at all a strong requirement that I need to verify the idea.
And I do not count up front that because Jews wrote the Bible, it is not to be trusted, ipso facto.

Lastly, the phrase "chosen people" evokes ideas in some skeptical minds which I think are biased and one sided. Chosen for what, were they ?

"Through you will all the families of the earth be blessed" is basically what God told Abraham. So the choosing was really in view of "choosing" all the nations of the earth to receive a positive benefit.

So the very phrase "chosen people" does not evoke to me only snobbish implications.

Originally posted by jaywill
You tell me up front that you intend not to believe in a chosen people. So I don't think you start out open minded.

You misquote me. I don't "intend" to believe you? Where did I say that? I said "I have no reason to believe that there is a "chosen nation of God". The fact that I need reasons in order to be convinced is a clear indication that I am open minded. I will tell you up front, however, that your circular arguments are never going to work on someone who is genuinely open minded.

Originally posted by FMF
You misquote me. I don't "intend" to believe you? Where did I say that? I said "I have no reason to believe that there is a "chosen nation of God". The fact that I need reasons in order to be convinced is a clear indication that I am open minded. I will tell you up front, however, that your circular arguments are never going to work on someone who is genuinely open minded.

I didn't quote you. I simply interpreted what your intentions were.

You tell me up front that you intend not to believe in a chosen people. So I don't think you start out open minded.

And by a similar token your skepticism will neither have much effect on one who finds the integrity of Jesus and the Hebrew prophets above suspicion.

This is a post that I never saw posted.

As for circular reasoning, for a few years now I have been convinced that any
worldview of any philosophy, involves some circular reasoning.

If you think you have a philosophical worldview which contains no circular
reasoning of any kind, I'd like to see it.

In the case of Christian theism, it may be the only warrented circular
reasoning because God says that He is " the beginning and the end, the Alpha
and the Omega, the First and the Last." It seems that of all reality God is
the center and circumference.

Possibly then, with the existence of God, circular reasoning is the
unavoidable.

Rational logic used to prove rational logic can arrive at truth is itself circular reasoning. The reasoning is using the tool of reasoning to verify itself. And that is circular.

Now my point in this discussion was to caution a poster not to casually dismiss
the claim of Jewish prophets that Israel was the chosen nation of God. One may
still doubt that. But I think they should consider the whole picture. It is not
so simple as to suggest that ANY ethnic group would "of course" always claim
that they are God's favorite.

I did not set out to offer "proof" that Israel is the chosen people of God, if
that is what you're skeptical about.

And I think we also have to consider that God "chose" other nations for
certain matters too. He had to remind Israel that they were not always the only
ones chosen in some way by God.

God warns Israel that He also "chose" the people of Cush, the Philistines, and the
Arameans for a similar national deliverance as the Hebrews -

"Are you not like the childen of the Cush[ites] To Me, O children of Israel ?
Declares Jehovah. Have I not brought up Israel out from the land of Egypt, and
the Philistines out of Caphtor, And Aram out from Kir ? " (Amos 9:7)

God informs Israel that He set aside certain areas of geography for other
peoples, "choosing" them for those areas.

"And when you come near to the children of Ammon, do not harass them, nor
engage them, for I will not give any of the land of the children of Ammon to you
as a possession; for I have given it to the children of Lor as a possession."
(Deut. 2:19)

"And Jehovah said to me, Do not harass Moab, nor engage them in battle, for
I will not five you any of their land as a possession; for to the children of
Lot I have given Ar as a possession." (v9)

"And command the people, saying, You are about to pass through the territory
of your brothers the children of Esau, who dwell in Seir; and they will be
afraid of you. Take careful heed to yourelves therefore; Do not engage them,
for I will not give you any of their land not even as much as a footstep; for I
have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession." (v.4,5)

We have to recongnize that God "chose" other nations as well for specific
things. So I put the whole matter of Israel being, "the chosen people" into a
fuller perspective when I consider the meaning of God choosing.

It doesn't mean that He never "chose" any other people for certain specific
areas or blessings.