Christs parables

Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change, cannot be God.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism

The above is the same belief that the Watchtower Society have adopted in their theology.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
The apostasy for the Jehovah's Witnesses came by way of the Millerites, Charles Taze Russell, and Joseph Rutherford down through the Watchtower Society of today. However, this was just a rekindling of the Arian apostasy or heresay of long ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Apostasy

The Arian Crisis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXlxmFdMjY0

The Instructor

I think it came as Paul states, with wrong teaching, mixing paganism with Christianity. Doctrines like the trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul, all essentially pagan, also that is why you have Calvinists, Lutherans, denominations named after a personality.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think it came as Paul states, with wrong teaching, mixing paganism with Christianity. Doctrines like the trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul, all essentially pagan, also that is why you have Calvinists, Lutherans, denominations named after a personality.

Let's look carefully at the words of Jesus to explain His parable.

"Therefore just as the tares are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the consummation of the age. (v.40)

The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, (v.41)

And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (v.42)

Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43)

Exactly what part of this interpretation of His own words do you consider "mixing paganism with Christianity" ?

Is the "furnace of fire" into which the lawless are thrown an item of pagan mixture ?

Are you accusing Jesus of mixing in pagan concepts into His own teaching because He said angels will gather some unsaved people and cast them into the furnace of fire ?

Are you saying it is a pagan mixture because Jesus said "just as the tares are collected and burned up with fire" to explain the burning of the lawless ones by Christ's angels ?

Originally posted by sonship
Let's look carefully at the words of Jesus to explain His parable.

[quote]
[b]"Therefore just as the tares are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the consummation of the age. (v.40)

The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, (v.41)

And ...[text shortened]... rned up with fire" to explain the burning of the lawless ones by Christ's angels ?[/b]

clearly the reference is to the foretold apostasy, I am not accusing Jesus of anything, he did not sow the weeds, Satan did. I think its self evident that in conjunction with other parts of scripture which i have detailed, seed, or the disseminating of seed is likened to teaching, Christ himself used the illustration of a sower. Are you denying that this is the case?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think it came as Paul states, with wrong teaching, mixing paganism with Christianity. Doctrines like the trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul, all essentially pagan, also that is why you have Calvinists, Lutherans, denominations named after a personality.

We also have Churches of Christ, Churches of God, Methodists Churches, Presbyterian Churches, Baptist Churches, Pentecostal Churches, Catholic Churches, Anglican Churches, etc. That just provides us more flavors to choose from. You are trying to be too legalistic about it all. Christians are saved by faith and the grace of God not by the law of Moses.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Tht Instructor

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
clearly the reference is to the foretold apostasy, I am not accusing Jesus of anything, he did not sow the weeds, Satan did. I think its self evident that in conjunction with other parts of scripture which i have detailed, seed, or the disseminating of seed is likened to teaching, Christ himself used the illustration of a sower. Are you denying that this is the case?

clearly the reference is to the foretold apostasy,

I am fully aware of this.

I am not accusing Jesus of anything, he did not sow the weeds, Satan did.

My inquiry was not about the sowing of tares (weeds). I was trying to find out if you were blaming Jesus for His own words concerning the lawless being burned on pagan mixture.

I assume then that you do not designate Christ's words about the angels burning the lawless as the weeds are burned on pagan mixture into Christian doctrine.

So, then you recognize that some reference to "hell fire" has ground in something Jesus spoke, at least in a somewhat semi-accurate way ?

Ie. the net effect of the lawless being thrown into the furnace of fire and the unsaved being condemned to some "hell fire" is about the same - a terrible prospect to be avoided. It is not a concept born of "pagan mixture" altogether.

I think its self evident that in conjunction with other parts of scripture which i have detailed, seed, or the disseminating of seed is likened to teaching, Christ himself used the illustration of a sower. Are you denying that this is the case?

It is not necessary to do that much to consult other passages in this case even if what you say has some validity. Jesus HIMSELF interprets the parable. And without question, without controversy WHEAT are human beings and TARES are human beings IN THIS CASE.

Do you deny this ? If so you are not paying attention to the words of Jesus - "Therefore JUST AS THE TARES are collected and burned up ... those WHO practices lawlessness, and will cast THEM into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

It is not TEACHINGS which will weep and gnash their teeth but people TAUGHT.

How much more explicit can it be that WHEAT and TARES refer to human beings ?

"and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one ..." (v.38)

Who are the good seed? The SONS of the kingdom, explains Jesus.
Who are the tares ? The SONS of the evil one, explains Jesus.
Who are the reapers ? The angels are the reapers, explains Jesus.

There is no wiggle room.
And there is no possibility of blaming the Lord's self interpretation on predicted apostasy or pagan mixture.

It may be the case that in 13:19 in that parable the seed is clearly "the word of the kingdom."

"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand, the evil one comes and snatches away that which has been sown in his heart, This is the one sown beside the way." (v.19)

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares the good seed of wheat are the sons of the kingdom not the teaching of the kingdom. And the tares are the sons of the evil one not the teaching of the evil one.

Do not attempt to draw the symbol definitions of the one parable over to the next if the words of Jesus explicitly define for us the symbols.

Originally posted by sonship

clearly the reference is to the foretold apostasy,

I am fully aware of this.

I am not accusing Jesus of anything, he did not sow the weeds, Satan did.

My inquiry was not about the sowing of tares (weeds). I was trying to find out if you were blaming Jesus for His own words concerning the lawless being bur ble over to the next if the words of Jesus explicitly define for us the symbols.

no hell fire, burning is a fitting description of destruction, not of eternal torment. This is entirely consistent with the rest of scripture. Yes the weeds and wheat are real people, however the weeds are the product of a teaching that was sown after the Christ sowed his fine seed in the field.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no hell fire, burning is a fitting description of destruction, not of eternal torment. This is entirely consistent with the rest of scripture. Yes the weeds and wheat are real people, however the weeds are the product of a teaching that was sown after the Christ sowed his fine seed in the field.

no hell fire, burning is a fitting description of destruction, not of eternal torment. This is entirely consistent with the rest of scripture. Yes the weeds and wheat are real people, however the weeds are the product of a teaching that was sown after the Christ sowed his fine seed in the field.

In light of the last three months and some other threads where I have discussed this, I can only call this assertion above - "Argument by Ignoring." (Assuming that you read those threads)

Those two threads were:

Would a god of love cast people into hell ? (or something close to that)

Eternal Damnation ( case sensitivity not recalled )

In those two threads I think I effectively refuted some erroneous notions used to object to the Scriptural revelation of eternal punishment. So your fresh assertion here is not likely to cause me to just re-write all those posts.


But I think I may start a whole new thread and call you out specifically on a certain matter we will discuss.

Originally posted by sonship

no hell fire, burning is a fitting description of destruction, not of eternal torment. This is entirely consistent with the rest of scripture. Yes the weeds and wheat are real people, however the weeds are the product of a teaching that was sown after the Christ sowed his fine seed in the field.

In light of the last three months and some ...[text shortened]... ay start a whole new thread and call you out specifically on a certain matter we will discuss.

you can ride up to the front door on your hoss, with a posse, six guns blazing, and call me out, it wont make the slightest difference, the idea of eternal torment is diametrically opposite to that that of a loving God, fire destroys, it does not torment persons eternally.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you can ride up to the front door on your hoss, with a posse, six guns blazing, and call me out, it wont make the slightest difference, the idea of eternal torment is diametrically opposite to that that of a loving God, fire destroys, it does not torment persons eternally.

you can ride up to the front door on your hoss, with a posse, six guns blazing, and call me out, it wont make the slightest difference, the idea of eternal torment is diametrically opposite to that that of a loving God, fire destroys, it does not torment persons eternally.

So now I have to repeat something already written.

In the book of Daniel three young men were thrown into a fire. It was heated seven times beyond normal. Those who through them into the furnace were burnt you just by approaching the fire.

However the three men walked around it with the Son of God as if it were an air conditioned room. When they came out they had not a hair damaged and their cloths were not burnt.

Now if God Almighty has the sheer power to preserve a human being in such a fierce flame then the opposite should be no problem to Him. God can conversely exercise His power to keep someone in a flame WITHOUT being burnt up to whatever degree He desires.

Put physics aside for the moment. Consider the power and authority of God. He plainly can regulate how a flame will effect anyone He allows to be in that fire.

Originally posted by sonship

you can ride up to the front door on your hoss, with a posse, six guns blazing, and call me out, it wont make the slightest difference, the idea of eternal torment is diametrically opposite to that that of a loving God, fire destroys, it does not torment persons eternally.

So now I have to repeat something already written.

In the b ...[text shortened]... God. He plainly can [b]regulate how a flame will effect anyone He allows to be in that fire.[/b]

so what, it proves nothing.

Originally posted by RJHinds
There are only two baskets, one for believers and the other one for unbelievers. So it makes no difference how good you think someone is. There are those that hear the word of Christ's truth and believe and accept Him and then there are all the others that do not believe or accept Him.

The instructor

Humm, but then you have so many who "say the believe but then prove false to it's power".
So who are these people and what is this power?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you can ride up to the front door on your hoss, with a posse, six guns blazing, and call me out, it wont make the slightest difference, the idea of eternal torment is diametrically opposite to that that of a loving God, fire destroys, it does not torment persons eternally.

Then a worldwide flood that destroyed all but eight persons on the earth is consistent with that of a loving God, because He destroyed all of them instead of tormenting them. Then by that logic, if the USA uses bombs to wipe out a people, it is a loving act as long as no one is being tormented forever. So now you should be able to see that when the USA dropped the atomic bomb on a couple cities that only killed a few Japanesse to end the war early, it was a loving act of kindness. See how good the Japanesse are doing now. No more torment for them.

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
Humm, but then you have so many who "say the believe but then prove false to it's power".
So who are these people and what is this power?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

(Romans 1:16 NKJV)

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Then a worldwide flood that destroyed all but eight persons on the earth is consistent with that of a loving God, because He destroyed all of them instead of tormenting them. Then by that logic, if the USA uses bombs to wipe out a people, it is a loving act as long as no one is being tormented forever. So now you should be able to see that when the USA dr ...[text shortened]... ndness. See how good the Japanesse are doing now. No more torment for them.

The Instructor

you are sick, get away from me, far, far away.