03 Jun '13 17:17>
I want to add that I am not saying that other views can't be valid, scripturally and otherwise--just that I want to test this one again.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe field represents the whole world. We are all in this world inspite of what you want to believe about being no part of this world. The weeds were recognized easily. That was not the problem. The problem in removing them was that some of the wheat might be rooted up with the weeds. So it does not matter what the weeds looked like, because rooting any of them up might also root up some of the wheat. Get that, Numbnuts?
no i don't think they do, i think they refer to those sown in the same field, that is Christians and those who profess to be Christians, atheists and Muslims are not sown in the same field and look quite different spiritually speaking. No it could not be any type of weed, they would need to look similar for the parable to make any sense.
Originally posted by RJHindsno they were not, infact they were not realised until they had both grown together you imbecile.
The field represents the whole world. We are all in this world inspite of what you want to believe about being no part of this world. The weeds were recognized easily. That was not the problem. The problem in removing them was that some of the wheat might be rooted up with the weeds. So it does not matter what the weeds looked like, because rooting any of them up might also root up some of the wheat. Get that, Numbnuts?
The Instructor
Originally posted by vistesdThe key is to realize that the wheat and tares are aspects of character, not whole people
The key is to realize that the wheat and tares are aspects of character, not whole people (unless one believes that the Adversary sews/generates/creates actual people). The fire is the fire of God’s agape, and is curative, cleansing/purging/removing hamartia. (And hamartia/sin is an affliction.) All of the other metaphors in the parab ...[text shortened]... le-predestination—and/or a pure works-salvationism (after all, the righteous do not need grace).
Originally posted by RJHindsI can understand your point of view,
The weeds actually represent all unbelievers including atheists. However, I just wanted to give the Muslims and the JWs a special little dig for my own fun. 😏
By the way, there is nothing specifically about any bearded darnel in that parable, even though it could be included among the many types of weeds available to Satan the devil.
The Instructor
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell, if you feed those dichotomies directly into this parable, you end up with the wholly righteous versus the wholly wicked from birth--sewn, born as such--one group destined for the retributive, not purgative/curative fire.
[b]The key is to realize that the wheat and tares are aspects of character, not whole people
Within the context of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth, this makes little sense. Jesus repeatedly spoke in terms of dichotomy. "born of the flesh" vs. "born of the spirit" (John 3), "good tree" vs. "bad tree" (Luke 6), "slave of committing s of heaven...48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.[/b]
Originally posted by vistesdCalvin, spit ding! he tried to ban us from dancing and drinking whiskey in direct opposition to the Great King Solomon's inspired words,
Well, if you feed those dichotomies directly into this parable, you end up with the wholly righteous versus the wholly wicked from birth--sewn, born as such--one group destined for the retributive, not purgative/curative fire.
That really doesn't fit, I think, with your Matthew quote. But if the tares are what need to be purged, then that becomes part o ughly righteous or thoroughly wicked persons from origination (when they are sewn as such).
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, I might still have some vestiges of Lutheran doctrine, but never was in the Calvin camp. With that said, thinkofone has always had good arguments on the works side (contra Luther). In the East they speak of faith/works synergy. But I'm not really addressing that now.
Calvin, spit ding! he tried to ban us from dancing and drinking whiskey in direct opposition to the Great King Solomon's inspired words,
(Ecclesiastes 3:12, 13) I have come to know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during one’s life and also that every man should eat and indeed drink and see good for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.
,
Originally posted by vistesdThere is a Calvinist streak down the entire west coast of Scotland, 'drinking and dancing', they say, 'its the ruination of Scotland'! bah! think of one is harbouring the delusion that righteousness is absolute, it cannot be, for men are sinful and prone to aberration.
Well, I might still have some vestiges of Lutheran doctrine, but never was in the Calvin camp. With that said, thinkofone has always had good arguments on the works side (contra Luther). In the East they speak of faith/works synergy. But I'm not really addressing that now.
Originally posted by vistesdif you feed those dichotomies directly into this parable, you end up with the wholly righteous versus the wholly wicked from birth--sewn, born as such
Well, if you feed those dichotomies directly into this parable, you end up with the wholly righteous versus the wholly wicked from birth--sewn, born as such--one group destined for the retributive, not purgative/curative fire.
That really doesn't fit, I think, with your Matthew quote. But if the tares are what need to be purged, then that becomes part o room for any salvation-as-healing (really, a soterias of [b]soterias).[/b]
Originally posted by vistesdEDIT: That aside, does God's activity (e.g., charis), both in the past and ongoing, have anything to do with it in your paradigm? Other than giving the once-and-for-all teaching? I can't recall. If not, then there certainly isn't room for any salvation-as-healing (really, a soterias of soterias).
Well, if you feed those dichotomies directly into this parable, you end up with the wholly righteous versus the wholly wicked from birth--sewn, born as such--one group destined for the retributive, not purgative/curative fire.
That really doesn't fit, I think, with your Matthew quote. But if the tares are what need to be purged, then that becomes part o
LATE EDIT: I wonder how you address the trilemma in my "Salvation Trilemma" thread?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn the parable, the wheat are righteous from origination (sewing, as "sons of the kingdom" ); the tares are wicked from origination (sewing, as "sons of the evil one" ). Now is this sewing the first or second birth?
[b]if you feed those dichotomies directly into this parable, you end up with the wholly righteous versus the wholly wicked from birth--sewn, born as such
You sound as confused as Nicodemus - assuming only one "birth". However in John 3 (which I cited earlier), Jesus taught of being "born again". This is the "transformation" of which I spoke.
in terms of individuals as a whole - as being either unrighteous or righteous.[/b]
Originally posted by vistesdNow is this sewing the first or second birth?
In the parable, the wheat are righteous from origination (sewing, as "sons of the kingdom" ); the tares are wicked from origination (sewing, as "sons of the evil one" ). Now is this sewing the first or second birth?
Remember, in the parable, those sewn righteous are righteous into maturity, and those sewn wicked are wicked into maturity--and then each a o re-examine this parable, unless this sewing is the second birth: then I'll ponder it).
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJust be straightforward, ToO: is the parable referring to the first or second birth?
[b]Now is this sewing the first or second birth?
Perhaps it will help to look at the two in parallel:
John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be ama don't see why any of this is necessarily "straight Calvinist double-predestination".[/b]
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyThere are only two baskets, one for believers and the other one for unbelievers. So it makes no difference how good you think someone is. There are those that hear the word of Christ's truth and believe and accept Him and then there are all the others that do not believe or accept Him.
I can understand your point of view,
but why do you put atheists in the same
basket as those who are evil?
I see atheists as floating voters who have not
yet made up their mind that there is a God and
a heavenly kingdom.
Just because they are atheists does not mean they are evil.
Many atheists are very decent honourable human beings and ...[text shortened]... and do good to others. Unlike some of the so called
Christians that you might hang out with.