Church problems....

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes it is pretty awesome, awe inspiring i would say. The restoration of true worship,
the weed and the wheat that the Christ had mentioned, how a reaping would take place
determining who were wheat and who were weeds.

So where were you guys during your so called 'dark ages' of the early 19th century? No actualy where were during all the centuries before that?

And more to the OP -- why would God allow that to happen to his church?

Originally posted by divegeester
So where were you guys during your so called 'dark ages' of the early 19th century? No actualy where were during all the centuries before that?

And more to the OP -- why would God allow that to happen to his church?

there have always been Witnesses of the most high God, all through the ages for even
a little light cannot be overcome by a great darkness.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
there have always been Witnesses of the most high God, all through the ages for even
a little light cannot be overcome by a great darkness.

I see, awesome dudes to carry such an important torch and lead Chrisendom through such terrible times. Do you have any names of these JW patriarchs?

Originally posted by divegeester
I see, awesome dudes to carry such an important torch and lead Chrisendom through such terrible times. Do you have any names of these JW patriarchs?

well there was the patriarchs, then the nation of Israel and then the apostles of Christ,
after these died, the apostasy which Christ foretold took place and there was a diluting
of Christianity with Pagan elements, which led to a kind of bastardisation of the reality
and which, to this present day is almost unrecognisable form of worship as that
practised by the first century christians, then we come along and make a restoration of
, rooting out the pagan elements, so that the Bride of Christ may be properly adorned, not sullied.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well there was the patriarchs, then the nation of Israel and then the apostles of Christ,
after these died, the apostasy which Christ foretold took place and there was a diluting
of Christianity with Pagan elements, which led to a kind of bastardisation of the reality
and which, to this present day is almost unrecognisable form of worship as th ...[text shortened]... ooting out the pagan elements, so that the Bride of Christ may be properly adorned, not sullied.

Ok so here comes the avoidance again eh?

Can you name one of the JW patriarch's you mentioned from within the timeframe of the dark ages you describe?

Originally posted by divegeester
Ok so here comes the avoidance again eh?

Can you name one of the JW patriarch's you mentioned from within the timeframe of the dark ages you describe?

you mean like after the apostles and during the apostasy? its hard to say as the Christ
stated that the two would grow together looking almost identical, but saying that, I
think its probable that persons like William Tyndale kept the light flickering.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you mean like after the apostles and during the apostasy? its hard to say as the Christ
stated that the two would grow together looking almost identical, but saying that, I
think its probable that persons like William Tyndale kept the light flickering.

I'm unclear; you said earlier that there where always "witnesses" throughout the ages, in response to my question to you "why would God allow that to happen to his church?". Were these Jehovah's Witnesses or not? Edit Specifically Tyndale for example?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well there was the patriarchs, then the nation of Israel and then the apostles of Christ,
after these died, the apostasy which Christ foretold took place and there was a diluting
of Christianity with Pagan elements, which led to a kind of bastardisation of the reality
and which, to this present day is almost unrecognisable form of worship as th ...[text shortened]... ooting out the pagan elements, so that the Bride of Christ may be properly adorned, not sullied.

It was inevitable that the spread of Christianity beyond its original setting -- Judea -- and its original audience -- the Jews -- to the broader gentile world, would bring it into contact with so-called pagan elements, and pragmatic Christians would accommodate and absorb such elements. Some of this could have been in error, if not consistent with the original message. But even at the start, the message of Jesus originated within a setting and a religion whose elements influenced it. For example, the gospels would have had no reason to preach rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's, if Judea were not under Roman rule.

So there seems to be a special dispensation you are giving to the influences on Christianity that came from that Judean setting under Rome, and the Jewish theology and traditions of the time, compared to later influences from outside.

In other words, and using a metaphor to compare Christianity to a bronze statue; a statue is cast, and then the casting is finished by additional steps. The initial condition for the casting of Christianity, were the situation in Roman-controlled, Jewish Judea. The finishing steps were what happened to be the case as Christianity spread outward from there. Who is to say that these finishing steps were not part of the divine plan? After all, if we follow the momentum of the gospels, we see them starting out, telling a story of reform for the Jews, and gradually becoming a story of reform for the gentiles as well. So it looks as though the 'bastardization' of which you speak, crept into the Bible itself.

Why else would things like the trinity issue be such a big problem? It was common in the Mediterranean -- but not by the Jews in Jewish Judea -- for the great and powerful to be considered to be divine or of divine lineage. The Jews were still waiting for such a person. This divine attribute was applied to Jesus (but not by the Jews) and words argued about ever since, went into the Bible. Thus we have the trinity issue. But I take it that JWs do not want to dispute the integrity of the Bible, so instead they say it is misconstrued. Is that correct? If so, why not just say that these bastardizations also crept into the Bible, and excise them? Or are they inextricably bound up with other words whose veracity you want to preserve?

Originally posted by divegeester
O.M.G.

So who are you to say who God does and doesn't use? You feel he only uses you and your position on things, or maybe the largest church in the world, the one that has killed hundreds of thousands? What spiritual insite do you have that no one else has that makes your standards of spirituality all knowing and only noticed by God?
Prove to us what those standards are?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well there was the patriarchs, then the nation of Israel and then the apostles of Christ,
after these died, the apostasy which Christ foretold took place and there was a diluting
of Christianity with Pagan elements, which led to a kind of bastardisation of the reality
and which, to this present day is almost unrecognisable form of worship as th ...[text shortened]... ooting out the pagan elements, so that the Bride of Christ may be properly adorned, not sullied.

What Robbie? Not the same worship today as they had back in the early Christian congregations? All one has to do is look at the gold and dress and all the sparkly stuff and all the pomp and traditions now that the Catholics and other religions have in their million $$$$$ cathedrals they have now to know that it looks just like the simple and clean worship of the early christian congregations. Lol.
Such a joke to see what they look like now and all the traditions and ceremonies that are done in the name of God. Talk about burdens on their members.....

Just look at this pointy stuff pointing up into God's nose.

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?q=cathedral+pics&v_t=keyword_rollover

Originally posted by galveston75
But the schools are Catholic.....

yes, but they are schools none the less. People are not sending their kids to Catholic school because we are in a deep recession, and its expensive.


btw: how many schools do the JW's operate? How many Colleges or Universities hav e they started?

Originally posted by Doward
yes, but they are schools none the less. People are not sending their kids to Catholic school because we are in a deep recession, and its expensive.


btw: how many schools do the JW's operate? How many Colleges or Universities hav e they started?

Still the point is clear. If they were approved by God he would not let this happen to them. And true the economy is a part of this but read the article closer and we all know the child abuse by the priest is one of the reasons also. It's no wonder the church has problems from many issues.
And yes we do have ministry schools and pioneer schools earthwide at all the branches in over 220 countries as well as a weekly ministry school in all the hundreds of thousands of Kingdom Halls earth wide and the economy has not closed a single one and in fact they grow by the hundreds each month.
Also our schools are free to all students.

Originally posted by galveston75
Still the point is clear. If they were approved by God he would not let this happen to them. And true the economy is a part of this but read the article closer and we all know the child abuse by the priest is one of the reasons also. It's no wonder the church has problems from many issues.
And yes we do have ministry schools and pioneer schools earthwi ...[text shortened]... and in fact they grow by the hundreds each month.
Also our schools are free to all students.

not schools that convert, but schools that teach how to read and write. This is a point of interest that's all.


You contradicted yourself. You stated that if they (the Catholic schools) were approved by God then this would not happen to them, then you said the economy is a part of it as well.

My point is this: If you reason that God wouldn't allow a school to remain open if he did not approve of it, then wouldn't the schools all close entirely? If they reduce by only 25% then God only approves of 75% of what they do?

I don't know about other parts of the country, but the priest's have little contact in the parochial school here, and the cases of abuse were not really associated with the schools, but with the churches themselves

Originally posted by galveston75
What Robbie? Not the same worship today as they had back in the early Christian congregations? All one has to do is look at the gold and dress and all the sparkly stuff and all the pomp and traditions now that the Catholics and other religions have in their million $$$$$ cathedrals they have now to know that it looks just like the simple and clean worsh ...[text shortened]... ng up into God's nose.

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?q=cathedral+pics&v_t=keyword_rollover

yes can you imagine going to the Kingdom hall and some dude with a pointy hat
saying, you may kiss my ruby encrusted ring, its a total shame and a joke
man.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes can you imagine going to the Kingdom hall and some dude with a pointy hat
saying, you may kiss my ruby encrusted ring, its a total shame and a joke
man.

[again...]


I'm unclear; you said earlier that there where always "witnesses" throughout the ages, in response to my question to you "why would God allow that to happen to his church?". Edit Specifically your mention that Tyndale could have been one of these for example?