27 Oct '05 05:46>
The debate between Nemsio and lucifershammer, in response to The Chess Express’s question got sidetracked—I am one of the “sidetrackers,” and, as I was interested in their exchange, I put the whole thing in a new thread. Here it is—
[/b]The Chess Express:[/b] Where in the Bible does it talk about a priest having the power to forgive sins?
Lucifershammer: Easy one:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-23)
Also see Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18.[/b]
Nemesio
Lucifershammer:
You cite an interesting passage in St Matthew 16:19. Every English translation I've ever
seen has been dishonest relative to the Greek. The verse reads, in Greek:
Doso soi tas kleidas tes basileias ton ouranon,
I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens,
kai o ean deses epi tes ges estai dedemenon en tois ouranois,
and what if you might bind on the land will be having been bound in the heavens,
kai o ean lusus epi tes ges estai lelumenon et tois ouranois.
and what if you might loose on the land will be having been loosed in the heavens.
(You will note that St Matthew 18:18 is similarly phrased).
This is not the casual relationship that EVERY translation implies; that is, if the Disciples
forgive them, they will be forgiven. No -- indeed -- it indicates that if the Disciples deem
them forgiven, it is simply because they were already forgiven in heaven, as per the passive
past perfect tense of the Greek clearly indicates.
St John 20:23 is similarly written:
[...He said...'Receive the Holy Spirit.] an tinon aphute tas amartias apheontai autois,
...of whom you might send off the sins they have been sent off to them,
an tinon kratute kekratuntai.
of whom you might hold they have been held.
Again, the sins in question have already been determined forgiven or not is clearly
indicated by the careful grammar of the Greek and is totally concordant with the Matthian
reading.
lucifershammer:
Nemesio,
Thanks for the Greek transliteration. One learns something new every day!
Nevertheless, one needs to be careful how one uses tense in a situation that involves a being that is essentially out of Time - i.e. God. Does it make sense to say that sins have 'already' been forgiven by God prior to absolution by the priest if God's forgiveness is an event that does not take place in time?
I think the idea of causality is more relevant here. The priest is only able to absolve the sins of the penitent because God absolves the sins of the penitent and is only able to forgive the sins of the penitent because God forgives the sins of the penitent. So, the situation here is not, AFAICS, one where an Infinite God is at the mercy of arbitrary decisions of priests on earth*. Rather, the priest's action is more of a final confirmation to the penitent that his sins have, indeed, been forgiven.
Cheers,
LH
---
* This reminds me of the situation in the film Dogma where a supposed "indulgence" frees any person who walks through the door of some church from all sin (including mortal sin). Naturally, the film gives you a good idea of what the Church does not teach.
Nemesio:
Originally posted by lucifershammer
Does it make sense to say that sins have 'already' been forgiven by God prior to absolution by the priest if God's forgiveness is an event that does not take place in time?
This doesn't make sense. Can you cite any other example of things that happen in heaven
that take place out of time in the context of the Gospels? Every other example of heaven-
related activity is definitively in the past, present or future, not pecularly arranged as in these
passages.
I think the idea of causality is more relevant here. The priest is only able to absolve the sins of the penitent because God absolves the sins of the penitent and is only able to forgive the sins of the penitent because God forgives the sins of the penitent.
I would agree that, indeed!, the idea of causality is the issue.
Rather, the priest's action is more of a final confirmation to the penitent that his sins have, indeed, been forgiven.
That's right. The Greek text makes it clear that it is a confirmation but the translations
invariably make a casual link that is not there. The Greek also makes it clear that
the absence of forgiveness on earth does not entail the absence of forgiveness in heaven.
That is, if a person sins such that a priest does not know about it, it does not entail that a
priest is needed to confirm that the sin is or is not forgiven. The text is very clear in that
regard.
That having been said, I am not trying to undermine the value and significance that a good
Confession can have to the faithful, or its Sacramental nature. However, the causal
link between earth and heaven is not supported by the Scriptures and, consequently, its
necessity for entering into heaven is, similarly, Scripturally indefensible.
Nemesio
lucifershammer
This doesn't make sense. Can you cite any other example of things that happen in heaven that take place out of time in the context of the Gospels?
I can't think of Gospel-specific examples (and certainly cannot quote the original Greek) - but one event I can think of is related to the Crucifixion. If the Crucifixion was responsible for the reconciliation of mankind to God, then this reconciliation could not have happened in Time - because there are people who died before Christ who were saved (e.g. Abraham).
Hope that makes sense.
The problem is that verbs require tense, so we cannot speak of events taking place outside Time without using tense; but, of course, the usage of tense in this case does not imply that the event takes place in Time.
You're right that, if a baptised Christian has committed a mortal sin, then the sacrament of Reconciliation is not necessary for entry into heaven - a perfect contrition will also do. But how many humans are capable of that?
[/b]The Chess Express:[/b] Where in the Bible does it talk about a priest having the power to forgive sins?
Lucifershammer: Easy one:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-23)
Also see Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18.[/b]
Nemesio
Lucifershammer:
You cite an interesting passage in St Matthew 16:19. Every English translation I've ever
seen has been dishonest relative to the Greek. The verse reads, in Greek:
Doso soi tas kleidas tes basileias ton ouranon,
I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens,
kai o ean deses epi tes ges estai dedemenon en tois ouranois,
and what if you might bind on the land will be having been bound in the heavens,
kai o ean lusus epi tes ges estai lelumenon et tois ouranois.
and what if you might loose on the land will be having been loosed in the heavens.
(You will note that St Matthew 18:18 is similarly phrased).
This is not the casual relationship that EVERY translation implies; that is, if the Disciples
forgive them, they will be forgiven. No -- indeed -- it indicates that if the Disciples deem
them forgiven, it is simply because they were already forgiven in heaven, as per the passive
past perfect tense of the Greek clearly indicates.
St John 20:23 is similarly written:
[...He said...'Receive the Holy Spirit.] an tinon aphute tas amartias apheontai autois,
...of whom you might send off the sins they have been sent off to them,
an tinon kratute kekratuntai.
of whom you might hold they have been held.
Again, the sins in question have already been determined forgiven or not is clearly
indicated by the careful grammar of the Greek and is totally concordant with the Matthian
reading.
lucifershammer:
Nemesio,
Thanks for the Greek transliteration. One learns something new every day!
Nevertheless, one needs to be careful how one uses tense in a situation that involves a being that is essentially out of Time - i.e. God. Does it make sense to say that sins have 'already' been forgiven by God prior to absolution by the priest if God's forgiveness is an event that does not take place in time?
I think the idea of causality is more relevant here. The priest is only able to absolve the sins of the penitent because God absolves the sins of the penitent and is only able to forgive the sins of the penitent because God forgives the sins of the penitent. So, the situation here is not, AFAICS, one where an Infinite God is at the mercy of arbitrary decisions of priests on earth*. Rather, the priest's action is more of a final confirmation to the penitent that his sins have, indeed, been forgiven.
Cheers,
LH
---
* This reminds me of the situation in the film Dogma where a supposed "indulgence" frees any person who walks through the door of some church from all sin (including mortal sin). Naturally, the film gives you a good idea of what the Church does not teach.
Nemesio:
Originally posted by lucifershammer
Does it make sense to say that sins have 'already' been forgiven by God prior to absolution by the priest if God's forgiveness is an event that does not take place in time?
This doesn't make sense. Can you cite any other example of things that happen in heaven
that take place out of time in the context of the Gospels? Every other example of heaven-
related activity is definitively in the past, present or future, not pecularly arranged as in these
passages.
I think the idea of causality is more relevant here. The priest is only able to absolve the sins of the penitent because God absolves the sins of the penitent and is only able to forgive the sins of the penitent because God forgives the sins of the penitent.
I would agree that, indeed!, the idea of causality is the issue.
Rather, the priest's action is more of a final confirmation to the penitent that his sins have, indeed, been forgiven.
That's right. The Greek text makes it clear that it is a confirmation but the translations
invariably make a casual link that is not there. The Greek also makes it clear that
the absence of forgiveness on earth does not entail the absence of forgiveness in heaven.
That is, if a person sins such that a priest does not know about it, it does not entail that a
priest is needed to confirm that the sin is or is not forgiven. The text is very clear in that
regard.
That having been said, I am not trying to undermine the value and significance that a good
Confession can have to the faithful, or its Sacramental nature. However, the causal
link between earth and heaven is not supported by the Scriptures and, consequently, its
necessity for entering into heaven is, similarly, Scripturally indefensible.
Nemesio
lucifershammer
This doesn't make sense. Can you cite any other example of things that happen in heaven that take place out of time in the context of the Gospels?
I can't think of Gospel-specific examples (and certainly cannot quote the original Greek) - but one event I can think of is related to the Crucifixion. If the Crucifixion was responsible for the reconciliation of mankind to God, then this reconciliation could not have happened in Time - because there are people who died before Christ who were saved (e.g. Abraham).
Hope that makes sense.
The problem is that verbs require tense, so we cannot speak of events taking place outside Time without using tense; but, of course, the usage of tense in this case does not imply that the event takes place in Time.
You're right that, if a baptised Christian has committed a mortal sin, then the sacrament of Reconciliation is not necessary for entry into heaven - a perfect contrition will also do. But how many humans are capable of that?