Originally posted by robbie carrobieJust was wondering the religious take on this. I wondered for instance, what happens to a fetus that was aborted, does it go to heaven?
you're argument rests on the premise that we have an 'eternal soul', something that transcends death and goes to some other place - not a biblical teaching!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Christian Scriptures teach that something beyond this world is eternal and will live in paradise,
you're argument rests on the premise that we have an 'eternal soul', something that transcends death and goes to some other place - not a biblical teaching!
no?
Nemesio
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Originally posted by sonhouseThat would depend if the fetus has a soul or not.
Just was wondering the religious take on this. I wondered for instance, what happens to a fetus that was aborted, does it go to heaven?
Most abortions are performed before the natural process put in place by God to reproduce has even formed into a body of a human yet.
When Adam was formed by God, Adam didn't become alive or have a spirit until God breathed the breath of life into him. As I believe is the case with all of us. Adam's body was fully formed by God, But Adam didn't become alive until God breathed his spirit into him.
Having a body partly formed does not necessarily mean it's a living spiritual being yet. When that actually happens, no one on this earth can say for sure. Only God knows.
And there is no scripture that says when that happens.
Pro lifers twist scripture and the meaning of it to back themselves up, But there's nothing that actually says when that happens.
I'm not pro abortion.
But I do believe in abortion rights. Especially for women and girls that are raped, And for women who's life's are in danger.
I'm one that would rather see a hundred guilty go free, than for one innocent to pay a unjustly penalty.
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Originally posted by sonhouseYou are presuming the idea of a heaven. You also seem to presume (but my interpretation could be wrong) that some sort of afterlife, if it exists, is the same kind of existence that we presently find ourselves. Why would either of these necessarily be the case?
When a mentally disabled person is born, raised, and dies with the mind of a 1 year old, no language capability, etc., and dies and goes to heaven, does that person now have language capability, moral ability, etc.?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieStory of the Rich man and Lazarus. Both died and something lived on and went elsewhere. Not saying it is eternal. Living on after death is not necessarily eternal. Only God decides what life is eternal and what is not. But Christ was clear that both body and soul exist and they are not necessarily the same:
you're argument rests on the premise that we have an 'eternal soul', something that transcends death and goes to some other place - not a biblical teaching!
Mstt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL and body in hell.
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Originally posted by Rajk999now! now! Rajk999, i thought we were brothers in arms opposing the trinitarians, now you renegade on me, as Dylan says, ''you and i have been through that, and this is not our fate, so let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late!''.
Story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Both died and something lived on and went elsewhere. Not saying it is eternal. Living on after death is not necessarily eternal. Only God decides what life is eternal and what is not. But Christ was clear that both body and soul exist and they are not necessarily the same:
Mstt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body ...[text shortened]... able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL and body in hell.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLOL ... but Im just repeating the words of Christ. Is there a special way to interpret that passage ?
now! now! Rajk999, i thought we were brothers in arms opposing the trinitarians, now you renegade on me, as Dylan says, ''you and i have been through that, and this is not our fate, so let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late!''.
Originally posted by chappy1what do i mean, ' there is no concept of an eternal 'soul', i.e. 'something that leaves the body after or just prior to death in that it transcends death and goes somewhere else, either purgatory or hell or heaven etc etc mostly the ideas related to these concepts come from a poor translation and thus a poor understanding of the original Greek and Hebrew words for soul in the ancient record. such an opinion would negate the need for a resurrection, a fundamental christian belief, after all, if something survives eternally, there would logically be no need to resurrect it, would there?
Not a Biblical teaching? What do you mean?
Adam in his creation did not have an eternal soul, did he, rather he died and went back to the earth from whence he had come (this is interesting in itself from a purely scientific point of view in that we as humans are essentially water and carbon i.e earth), and it was the life force that God originally 'breathed' into Adam which animated his body and which returns to God, not some immortal something which is able to transcend death and suffer eternal torments or eternal bliss???? this is further compounded when one considers the resurrection, from the dead, which Christ performed, of Lazarus we read that he was 'sleeping', not conscious of anything while in death, now if he was enjoying eternal bliss then it would have been very cruel for Christ to bring him back in bodily form, once again to suffer the rigors of old age, sickness etc, something which is entirely uncharacteristic of our understanding of Christ.
however the real truth of the matter is to be found in the human reaction to death, when someone close to us dies, we are overwhelmed, sometimes we are unable to overcome the felling of loss, why should this be the case if we truly think that a person goes somewhere better, we should be happy in that case, but we are not, we are usually completely devastated, yes we realize within ourselves there is a finality concerning death, yet despite this we may take courage from the scriptures which indicate that there is to be a resurrection.
awaiting your thoughts - regards Robbie Carrobie (carrobie is the Persian/urdu word for cherub or angel) 😀
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe soul, which is bascially the life that God breathed into man, lives on after the body dies, and returns to God. Soul and body are separate. God can kill both, man can kill the body only. Christ said so in crystal clear language (and gave examples) and no amount of human logic and analysis can refute it. If you try to refute it you will look as silly as the Trintarians do when they try to claim Christ is God when the Angels, Paul, John the Baptist, disciples.. everybody.. called Christ the Son of God.
what do i mean, ' there is no concept of an eternal 'soul', i.e. 'something that leaves the body after or just prior to death in that it transcends death and goes somewhere else, either purgatory or hell or heaven etc etc mostly the ideas related to these concepts come from a poor translation and thus a poor understanding of the original Greek and He ...[text shortened]... hts - regards Robbie Carrobie (carrobie is the Persian/urdu word for cherub or angel) 😀
Nobody used the term 'eternal soul' except you. So you are basically arguing with yourself 🙂. However, soul & body are used interchangeably at times in the Bible. From the context it is easy to tell if 'soul' refers to a person or the life which returns to God. Or if you need to refer to the original Hebrew words and you will see the difference.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis whole theory or concept would not agree with the scriptures of Lazarus and the rich man after their deaths. And many other numerous scriptures. It has nothing to do with any poor translations.
what do i mean, ' there is no concept of an eternal 'soul', i.e. 'something that leaves the body after or just prior to death in that it transcends death and goes somewhere else, either purgatory or hell or heaven etc etc mostly the ideas related to these concepts come from a poor translation and thus a poor understanding of the original Greek and He hts - regards Robbie Carrobie (carrobie is the Persian/urdu word for cherub or angel) 😀
We can all speculate as to how things work with God after death. But it's all speculation until we die. God has given us enough wisdom and knowledge in His word and else where, to either have faith in Him, or not.
And He has made known to us very well the basics of what happens after death. We either end up in a good place with Him, or a bad and horrible place without Him. We choose. Jesus spoke many times of hell and how you don't want to end up there with satan and his fallen angels. Hear it or not.
It's possible for all of us to end up in Heaven threw Jesus s blood that He shed for ALL of US. Drink it, It's free.
Heaven from what God has told us is life. Life with Him as Lord, with no sickness or death anymore, forever. Life with complete peace. It's still life as we know it, But it's perfect life without death anymore. And I'm sure there's more than that. 😀