1. Standard memberKingDavid403
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    26 Oct '08 14:362 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The soul, which is bascially the life that God breathed into man, lives on after the body dies, and returns to God. Soul and body are separate. God can kill both, man can kill the body only. Christ said so in crystal clear language (and gave examples) and no amount of human logic and analysis can refute it. If you try to refute it you will look as silly as t o God. Or if you need to refer to the original Hebrew words and you will see the difference.
    you will look as silly as the Trinatarians do when they try to claim Christ is God

    John 14:8
    Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us,"
    9. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; So how can you say show us the Father?

    I would be careful we calling someone silly or saying they look silly. And I'm not trinatarian. It's a spiritual mystery that none of us completely understands at this time. Jesus was and is the son of God, but also God. Read on in John chapter 14.
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    26 Oct '08 14:36
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    [b]The soul, which is bascially the life that God breathed into man, lives on after the body dies, and returns to God. Soul and body are separate. God can kill both, man can kill the body only. Christ said so in crystal clear language (and gave examples) and no amount of human logic and analysis can refute it. If you try to refute it you will look as silly as t ...[text shortened]... to God. Or if you need to refer to the original Hebrew words and you will see the difference.[/b
    ummm, i agree with this in essentials, however if my understanding is correct, you are comparing the life force, which God 'breathed', into Adam and making it synonymous with 'the soul', this is an inaccuracy, Adam became a 'living soul', not that he was given one, the term living soul simply means 'a breathing creature', of interest to the argument also is the fact that animals are also called souls, meaning simply that they are also living breathing creatures the same as Adam was, not that they possess, 'a soul'. and yes i may be arguing with myself (its not the first time), but the original post was with regard to life after death, which if you think about it, presumes that something survives death, usually what is termed, 'the soul', of the person, ask many Christians, Hindus, Muslims etc etc, they generally all believe that something transcends death, 'the soul', of the person, and as far as i am aware, the something is conscious, otherwise how could it know delight, or torment or whatever, I don't think they believe it was simply an inanimate force as was the breath of life which god imparted to Adam.

    i do however strongly disagree with you with regard to looking at the original languages, many times misunderstandings have been cleared up by referring to the original languages!
  3. PenTesting
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    26 Oct '08 14:45
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    ...Jesus was and is the son of God, but also God.
    ELEVEN WORDS. You said it in eleven words.

    Thats amazing.
    The angels could not do it.
    John the Baptist could not.
    Neither the Disciples.
    Not Paul ...Nobody

    Somehow they all managed to call Christ the Son of God, and they were lost for words when they had to say Christ is also God.
    I dunno must have been something in the water in the Sea of Galilee.
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    26 Oct '08 14:48
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    [b]you will look as silly as the Trinatarians do when they try to claim Christ is God

    John 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us,"
    9. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; So how can you say show us the Father? ...[text shortened]... of us completely understands at this time. Jesus was and is the son of God, but also God.[/b]
    Actually King David, with all due respect, no hes not! that he was the 'son', in the sense that he was directly created by god, this is without question colossians 1:15, the scriptures refer to him as the ' only begotten son' because of this, all other things having been created through him, but that he was an actual creation of God, the firstborn is without dispute. we have just had a rather prolonged and at sometimes heated discussion with the trinitarins in this regard and although they eventually got checkmated still they persist with this idea that Christ is God, when there is not one reference to him being termed 'almighty God' in the ancient record, a god yes, a divine being yes, wonderful counselor yes, mighty god yes, prince of peace yes, eternal father yes, but never ever ever ever ever ever ever is he termed almighty god!
  5. PenTesting
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    26 Oct '08 15:01
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ummm, i agree with this in essentials, however if my understanding is correct, you are comparing the life force, which God 'breathed', into Adam and making it synonymous with 'the soul', this is an inaccuracy, Adam became a 'living soul', not that he was given one, the term living soul simply means 'a breathing creature', of interest to the argument ...[text shortened]... es misunderstandings have been cleared up by referring to the original languages!
    First, , my point was that we DO need to look at the hebrew or greek translations and maybe that will help clear it up.

    I dont think any soul is eternal but clearly something survives and goes back to God. There are many references in Revelation to souls waiting for judgment. I am not sure that those souls can feel or think, but they neverthless exist. Resurection is therefore for the body which when rejoined with the soul, recreates the person.

    Basically, there are many mysteries in the Bible and sometimes (not always) the words of Christ are clear on an issue. Anytime we form conclusions which conflict with what Christ said, then we need to revise that doctrine otherwise we are on shaky ground. In this case Christ's was clear, both the statement and the examples he used to illustrate.
  6. Standard memberKingDavid403
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    26 Oct '08 15:28
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Actually King David, with all due respect, no hes not! that he was the 'son', in the sense that he was directly created by god, this is without question colossians 1:15, the scriptures refer to him as the ' only begotten son' because of this, all other things having been created through him, but that he was an actual creation of God, the firstborn i ...[text shortened]... es, eternal father yes, but never ever ever ever ever ever ever is he termed almighty god!
    I see what you're saying, and I understand were you're coming from. I think you're misunderstand what I'm trying to say here, As I don't know completely how to say it.

    It's spiritual. God the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in God the Father. They are one, as God is One. God is spirit. God is one. Therefore Jesus has the full authority of God the Father because the father is in Him. They are one. One God, One faith, One baptism. One spirit. One God. One savior, One wonderful counselor, One prince of piece, One eternal Father, One God.
    Jesus said it Himself to Philip. You see Me, You see God the father. You see God, The one God.

    And Rajk 999 until you learn how to have respect and love for others, and quit being so rude all the time, just don't respond to my posts.
    Even if I am completely wrong here your rudeness will never help me or any one see what possible truths you might have to offer. I've seen you post a lot of good things, But then your rudeness throws it right out the window. I know I have that problem myself sometimes. But I do try to keep it under control. So do try to turn 11 degrees east.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    26 Oct '08 15:38
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    I see what you're saying, and I understand were you're coming from. I think you're misunderstand what I'm trying to say here, As I don't know completely how to say it.

    It's spiritual. God the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in God the Father. They are one, as God is One. God is spirit. God is one. Therefore Jesus has the full authority of God the ...[text shortened]... sometimes. But I do try to keep it under control. So do try to turn 11 degrees east.
    How do you propose to prove the existence of god? I don't have to prove it, you are the one doing the god and christ talk as if it were real.
    Since we are talking about the biggest scam in 2000 years, you need to have something more than bible verses.
  8. Standard memberKingDavid403
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    26 Oct '08 15:431 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How do you propose to prove the existence of god? I don't have to prove it, you are the one doing the god and christ talk as if it were real.
    Since we are talking about the biggest scam in 2000 years, you need to have something more than bible verses.
    How do you propose to prove the existence of god?
    Look in a mirror. If you think what you see is all just a fluke, then I or nothing can help you.
  9. PenTesting
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    26 Oct '08 16:13
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    [b]How do you propose to prove the existence of god?
    Look in a mirror. If you think what you see is all just a fluke, then I or nothing can help you.[/b]
    Are you being rude to Sonhouse?
  10. Standard memberKingDavid403
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    26 Oct '08 16:211 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Are you being rude to Sonhouse?
    Not in the slightest. I'm trying to show him proof of God without bible verses.
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    26 Oct '08 16:232 edits
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    [b]How do you propose to prove the existence of god?
    Look in a mirror. If you think what you see is all just a fluke, then I or nothing can help you.[/b]
    I assume what you mean by “a fluke” is evolution. But natural selection is an essential part of evolution and natural selection doesn’t produce “flukes” because natural selection is not a random process but is predictable. So it is not part of any modern scientific theory (that includes evolution) that conscious living things such as our selves exist PURELY as a result of totally random “flukes” or “accidents” even though some random “flukes” or “accidents” are involved in the form of mutations.

    Of course, the fact that the outcome of evolution turned out to be EXACTLY what it is (whatever that is) IS a “fluke” (because of the random nature of mutations and NOT natural selection) -but to say that makes the idea that evolution did it absurd is just like saying that evolution is like throwing a dice a thousand times and then saying that whatever EXACT outcome is from all those dice throws is so absurdly unlikely that it is absurd to suggest that that EXACT outcome could have occurred from throwing the dice -but you still throw those dice and you still got whatever outcome that came from that (and evolution is not totally random so the analogy with the dice isn’t even correct anyway).
  12. Standard memberKingDavid403
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    26 Oct '08 16:303 edits
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    I assume what you mean by “a fluke” is evolution. But natural selection is an essential part of evolution and natural selection doesn’t produce “flukes” because natural selection is not a random process but is predictable. So it is not part of any modern scientific theory (that includes evolution) that conscious living things such as our selves exist ...[text shortened]... the dice -but you still throw those dice and you still got whatever outcome that came from that.
    Your assumption is wrong. What you consider evolution and what I consider evolution might be two different things, and from two different sources tho.
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    26 Oct '08 16:46
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    Your assumption is wrong. What you consider evolution and what I consider evolution might be two different things, and from two different sources tho.
    …Your assumption is wrong......…

    So if sonhouse looked in a mirror then in what sense are you saying he may think what he is looking at could be a “fluke”? -I mean, a “fluke” in what way?

    …What you consider evolution and what I consider evolution might be two different things, and from two different sources tho...…

    -I don’t understand -are you implying that, somehow, the word “evolution” can mean more than one thing?
    At far as I am aware, there is only one excepted scientific meaning of the word “evolution” in the context of how life diversified into many forms -are you talking about some other kind of evolution and in a different context? -if so, what other context and what sort of evolution?
  14. Standard memberKingDavid403
    King David
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    26 Oct '08 17:162 edits
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    [b]…Your assumption is wrong......…

    So if sonhouse looked in a mirror then in what sense are you saying he may think what he is looking at could be a “fluke”? -I mean, a “fluke” in what way?

    …What you consider evolution and what I consider evolution might be two different things, and from two different sources tho...…

    -I don’t ...[text shortened]... of evolution and in a different context? -if so, what other context and what sort of evolution?[/b]
    So if sonhouse looked in a mirror then in what sense are you saying he may think what he is looking at could be a “fluke”? -I mean, a “fluke” in what way?
    That somehow we're not created by God. If you're not created by God,
    Then there is no other answer. You are nothing but just a fluke of nature, or whatever it is that you think happened that just came out of nowhere and is leading to nowhere.
    You can put all your non logic together that you want, it has no beginning, or conclusion, or any meaning for that matter. It all means nothing. And comes from nothing. meaning we mean absolutely nothing. A fluke.

    -if so, what other context and what sort of evolution? Things on earth including living things and creatures evolve and adapt to their changing surroundings for survival. Put in place by the very nature of God when He made everything. And I'm 99% for sure that our conversation would be pointless from here on since we believe different.
  15. PenTesting
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    26 Oct '08 22:051 edit
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    .....And Rajk 999 until you learn how to have respect and love for others, and quit being so rude all the time, just don't respond to my posts. ..
    That was sarcasm not rudeness.
    So tell me .. you are walking down the street near this construction site and you hear and loud noise as if something broke off and started falling. The nice guy near to you in the 3-piece suit says
    "Lovely day insnt it, that noise is nothing to worry about ... happens all the time".
    But the foreman on the 4th floor shouts " Get away from the street you blooming idiots, MOVE MOVE MOVE .... damn fools!"

    Yep, youre right . Dont listen to the rude guy.
    Truth comes in nice flowery language.
    Everybody knows that.
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