Continuing: "Questioning online Apologetics"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Quite a proclamation from one who seems so deluded as to be unaware of his resorting to distortions, half-truths and outright lies even when the evidence is staring him in the face.

You can keep ignoring it and making your proclamations, but truth is truth.

You have eyes but cannot see.

BTW, I pity KM, just as I pity you.

You are in no position to pity anyone.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Wrong.

Where in the original Greek does "without a cause" appear?

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=greek&verseref=Matthew+5%3A22

It doesn't.

Nice try, but you won't be able to successfully turn this back on me.

The bottom line is, you broke Christ's commandment by calling knightmeister a "pathetic little man."

"And whoever says to hi ...[text shortened]... of the council."

By evading the obvious, you only dig a deeper hole for yourself.

The bible of the Greek Orthodox Church includes it for one amongst others, though it seems several omit it. I don't know if there's a way to get back to the "original Greek" for sure and even if there was, there isn't a way to know what Jesus actually said. Regardless, the way you've gone about this, is underhanded at best. I saw nothing that would translate to "insultingly".

You can attack me all you like as can KM, but it doesn't change the teachings of Jesus. Whether or not any individual breaks a commandment of Jesus does not the teachings of Jesus. The fact remains that Jesus taught that one must obey His commandments to abide in His love. The fact remains that Jesus taught that only those who obey His commandments love Him. The fact remains that Jesus taught that one cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"salvation"/"heaven".

Also you make at least several assumptions including:
1) Motivation for the statement.
2) Raca is synonymous with pathetic. Raca means ": O empty one, i.e. thou worthless (as a term of utter vilification)". Pathetic means "deserving pity".
3) "A ravenous wolf utters insults."
4) What is perceived as an insult is necessarily "bad fruit". People are "insulted" by the truth all the time. It doesn't make it wrong.

You have eyes but cannot see.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
You are in no position to pity anyone.

Such vengeance in your hearts is pitiful whether or not you believe me to be in such a position. I think your making me the target of your vengeance does put me in that position. I can hardly make a post in this forum without KM making disparaging remarks and it seems you've taken the baton. And both of you seem willing to resort to any means of doing it.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Wrong.

Where in the original Greek does "without a cause" appear?

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=greek&verseref=Matthew+5%3A22

It doesn't.

Nice try, but you won't be able to successfully turn this back on me.

The bottom line is, you broke Christ's commandment by calling knightmeister a "pathetic little man."

"And whoever says to hi of the council."

By evading the obvious, you only dig a deeper hole for yourself.

"Nice try, but you won't be able to successfully turn this back on me."

Turn what back on you? Your attack? That's right, you tried to claim it isn't an attack.

Well, let me tell you, I've been called pretty much every name in the book and several of them by you. I don't know that I've ever been in the midst of such a judgemental and vengeful lot. Yes, that includes you.

If it isn't an attack, why do you declare "victory" at the end of your posts? There's something about an attacker who declares himself the victor.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Nice try, but you won't be able to successfully turn this back on me."

Turn what back on you? Your attack? That's right, you tried to claim it isn't an attack.

Well, let me tell you, I've been called pretty much every name in the book and several of them by you. I don't know that I've ever been in the midst of such a judgemental and vengeful ...[text shortened]... of your posts? There's something about an attacker who declares himself the victor.[/b]

I never called you a name before. Prove it, and I will repent.

It's quite telling that you think I'm attacking you just because I've exposed the fact that you're a sinner.

Why is this?

It's because the doctrine you espouse is "sinless perfectionism," which says that only those who achieve an enlightened state of sinless perfection are truly saved and faith in Christ avails nothing.

In light of this, it's no wonder that you keep saying to me, "you have eyes but cannot see," because you imagine yourself having achieved the enlightened state of sinless perfection, while I remain a sinner who cannot see the truth.

So why is it significant that you are exposed as a sinner?

Because up until now you've been consistently placing the burden of sinless perfectionism on others.

Why do you impose a burden on others which you yourself do not carry? Do you think such a practice is in any way commendable?

Christ himself did not teach sinless perfectionism. Nowhere does he teach that a believer must achieve a state of perfection before he or she is accepted.

Undoubtedly, we are called to holiness, but Christ also said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me [i.e., everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him], and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I never called you a name before. Prove it, and I will repent.

It's quite telling that you think I'm attacking you just because I've exposed the fact that you're a sinner.

Why is this?

It's because the doctrine you espouse is "sinless perfectionism," which says that only those who achieve an enlightened state of sinless perfection are truly sav Him], and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37).

My post to KM was to once again address the fact that he had made misleading statements as to my beliefs. This had been going on for months now. No matter how many times I correct him, KM persists in making misleading statements and disparaging remarks. No matter how many times I ask him to stop, KM persists. Almost everywhere I post, KM comes in and continues his assault. It's pitiful, so I called him "pathetic".

You've shown yourself to be quite a bit like KM with your illogical arguments based on false premises and assumptions. You also seem to have taken up the attack.

You start with a stream of posts that read in part:
"you broke God's law just now by insulting knightmeister."

"Because you insulted knightmeister, according to Jesus you are guilty of breaking the whole of God's law. I can further infer, because you are guilty of sin, that you are also a slave to sin"

"Face it, you've sinned. You're a sinner."

"Sorry, T.O.O., the charade is over."

"Don't you see that your credibility is ruined? It's over."

"Why should anyone take you seriously? You see, it's over."

"I've exposed the fact that you're a sinner."

Seems to that your aim is to "ruin" my "credibility" with your accusations. Is that an attack? Quite frankly, I don't know how else to take it.

The premise of your attack seems to be that if you can "expose" me a sinner, then I have no right to give my interpretation of the teachings of Jesus because it places "the burden of sinless perfectionism on others."

Sorry, but I believe that the teaching of Jesus are quite deep and profound. If people actually followed them, the world would be a much better place. Whether or not any individual sins (including me) does not affect the teachings of Jesus. Jesus states in several different ways that one cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"salvation"/"heaven". This makes logical sense. To be righteous, i.e., one with the eternal, IS "eternal life" / "salvation" / "heaven". Jesus also states that if you "believe" you will have "eternal life"/"salvation"/"heaven". This "contradiction" can easily be cleared up by understanding that if one "believes" in the teachings of Jesus, one will obey the teachings of Jesus, i.e., the will of His Father.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Who are these people who say 'Lord, Lord', but would be "believers"? Who are the "believers" who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who do not do the will of His Father? The gate is narrow.

This isn't about "placing burden", but about what Jesus teaches. Again, whether or not any given individual sins, does not affect what Jesus taught.

I've been looking into Matthew 5:22 a bit. Seems like there's a bit of controversy concerning "without a cause". Here's one take:
http://www.studytoanswer.net/consref/anger.html

Also, I wouldn't think that it's about "insulting" or "name calling" either or Jesus doesn't practice what He preaches.
Matthew 23:17
"You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?"

BTW, you and I both know that you once called me "Satan", "the instrument of Satan" or something to that effect.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
My post to KM was to once again address the fact that he had made misleading statements as to my beliefs. This had been going on for months now. No matter how many times I correct him, KM persists in making misleading statements and disparaging remarks. No matter how many times I ask him to stop, KM persists. Almost everywhere I post, KM comes in and cont hat effect.

I also believe that the teachings of Jesus are deep and profound, but much more deep and profound than the "sinless perfection" doctrine suggests.

Jesus never taught sinless perfectionism; he never said that one must achieve a state of sinless perfection before one can be accepted by the Lord.

The Law of God requires sinless perfection, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17).

Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), because he came to fulfill the law on behalf of all those who would believe on Him (i.e., all those whom the Father would give Him).

If sinless perfection is impossible for men to achieve, you may ask, then why did Jesus say "he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven... will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matt 7:21-23)?

First of all, what exactly is the will of the Father? Can we perform the will of the Father in our own power?

Jesus reveals the Father's will in John 6:

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

The will of the Father is that we believe in Jesus Christ.

People asked Jesus what they must do, but Jesus said, 'believe':

"Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"" (John 6:28-29).

We can't even take credit for our faith!

God the Father gives people the power to believe in His Son. Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (John 6:65).

Furthermore, everyone who believes in the Son of God "will by no means [be] cast out" (John 6:37).

Nothing here about the necessity of achieving sinless perfection to merit acceptance.
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You quote Matthew 7:21-23 quite a bit I've noticed in support of your doctrine.

Why?

The individuals referred to there are not believers who somehow failed to live sinless lives. Jesus is referring to those who prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many wonders in His (Jesus'😉 name. These people performed supernatural works without believing in the Son of God, simply by invoking Jesus' name (a common occurrence in the time of Christ and his disciples).

Notice how Matthew 7:21-23 immediately follows the section on false prophets. Christ "never knew" these people, because the Father never granted that they come to Christ; i.e., the Father did not grant them the power to believe. Therefore, the righteousness of Christ was never imputed to them:

‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Christ accepts or rejects individuals based on the existence or non-existence of the certain faith granted by the Father, not based on whether or not they've achieved a state of sinless perfection.

Christ didn't teach sinless perfection.

Sinless perfection is a heretical teaching you would do well to reject utterly.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I also believe that the teachings of Jesus are deep and profound, but much more deep and profound than the "sinless perfection" doctrine suggests.

Jesus never taught sinless perfectionism; he never said that one must achieve a state of sinless perfection before one can be accepted by the Lord.

The Law of God requires sinless perfection, not fection is a heretical teaching you would do well to reject utterly.

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Notice how Matthew 7:21-23 immediately follows the section on false prophets. Christ "never knew" these people, because the Father never granted that they come to Christ; i.e., the Father did not grant them the power to believe. Therefore, the righteousness of Christ was never imputed to them:
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Or "I never allowed you." He never acknowledged what they did.

I am convinced that this could apply to Christians.

Notice that it does not specifically indicate an eternal punishment. In the millennial kingdom Christ will say to some that He never allowed them to do what they did in His name.

Of course the false disciple will perish. But the actual disciple who lived a lawless life can be dispensationally punished by the Lord during the 1000 year millennial kingdom.

These ones could be redeemed believers.

By the time of the end of the 1000 years all those who have been told to depart from the Lord, into the "outer darkness" will have been perfected to join the overcomers in the New Jerusalem in the eternal age.

We get along fine Epi so I don't mind be challenged to further verify this. It should be torture tested. Don't take it just on my say so. IF you wish I would add further reasons to establish why this is a good interpretation.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Notice how Matthew 7:21-23 immediately follows the section on false prophets. Christ "never knew" these people, because the Father never granted that they come to Christ; i.e., the Father did not grant them the power to believe. Therefore, the righteousness of Christ was never imputed to them:
====================== IF you wish I would add further reasons to establish why this is a good interpretation.

I am convinced that this could apply to Christians.

But Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37).

Why would Jesus "cast out" those whom he declared he would never cast out?

Note that those folks who are cast out prophesied, cast out demons, and performed miracles in the name of Jesus. There is no indication that these were God-ordained believers; there is every indication that these were wolves in sheep clothing (in the verses immediately preceding Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus is talking about false prophets; indicating the context of his remarks).

I prefer to interpret scripture in context rather than from a dispensational perspective.

Furthermore, Christ rejects them on the grounds that he never knew them. If he had known them, i.e., if they were truly his sheep, then they would not be "workers of iniquity."

A worker of iniquity is he who does not believe in Christ, who does not repent of sin, who does not live a holy life, and who does not love Christians. He may profess to be a Christian, and use the power of Christ's name to do remarkable things, but Christ knows that he is a hypocrite, and his outward manifestations gain him nothing whatsoever.

Christ is not talking with genuinely born-again Christians who happen to have struggled with one form of sin or another, from time to time. It does not necessarily follow that a person is a hypocrite if they succumb to a temptation. A person born of God is still capable of stumbling. That which marks a person as one of Christ's sheep is a continual confession of sin and a putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

Christ promised that His sheep would in no wise be cast out, in any manner. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (John 3:18; Romans 8:1). Period.

I recently read somewhere, I think it was in my handbook of early Christian beliefs, that there were those in Christ's day and during the time of the apostles, who were recognized as not being part of the flock, who yet used Christ's name to perform miracles, prophecy, and cast out demons. I'll see if I can find the exact source, but I'll have to get back to you on that.

Peace.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I am convinced that this could apply to Christians.

But Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37).

Why would Jesus "cast out" those whom he declared he would never cast out?

Note that those folks who are cast out prophesied, cast out demons, and performed m if I can find the exact source, but I'll have to get back to you on that.

Peace.[/b]

Good questions. I hope I can be brief and clear without being as verbose I would like to be.

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But Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37).

Why would Jesus "cast out" those whom he declared he would never cast out?
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This is an excellent passage to assure a new believer of the security of his eternal salvation. But it might be the milk of the word and not the more solid meat that they need after some time.

By just taking the phrase "cast out" it is difficult to know to what extent He means. This could mean that He will never cast off for eternity. This is how I take it.

But it is difficult to assume that Christ cannot discipline His wayward disciple in some limited casting out. For example in John 15 some of the branches that do not abide in Him He will cast off "as a branch" (15:6).

"I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing."

If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (15:5,6)

This casted out one was a branch so he probably is a disciple.
This branch has already received the life supply because he is dried up.

I am not comfortable saying that the casted out branch is an unbeliever because such a one is not a branch in the true vine.

This passage alone might be suspect. The question I have to ask is: Is there more than one passage which would indicate this kind of discipline of a disciple? The answer is yes.

I will not mention them all now. However, you do have a fornicating Christian whom Paul recommended that the church in Corinth remove from the fellowship until he should repent. (1 Cor. 5:1-5)

In the second Coribthian letter this brother was happily restored to repentence and to fellowship with the congregation

Paul spoke of some who would be saved yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15) -

"If anyone's work is consumed he will suffer loss, but he himself with be saved, yet so as through fire."

This could also refer to the non-abiding branch which was cast off, gathered, and burned with fire. As to eternity he will not perish forever. And as a eternally redeemed one the Lord will not cast him out forever.

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Note that those folks who are cast out prophesied, cast out demons, and performed miracles in the name of Jesus. There is no indication that these were God-ordained believers; there is every indication that these were wolves in sheep clothing (in the verses immediately preceding Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus is talking about false prophets; indicating the context of his remarks).
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I honestly think that it COULD conceivably include redeemed Christian brothers also. The indication is difficult to resist in the parables of the non-watching servant in Matthew 25:24-46:

But if the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrits. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

1.) It is a servant of the Master which would not be an unbeliever.

2.) Though the passage does refer to punishment, it does not explicitly say it is eternal.

3.) First John told us that some disciples not abiding would be "put to shame" at the Lord's second coming. The KJV translation is misleading. It is not a matter of they feel ashamed as much as they are PUT TO SHAME:

"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He is manifested, we may have confidence and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 JOhn 2:28)

I submit to you that the most sober and safest interpretation is that some who are eternally saved and secure in eternal redemption, may nonetheless be "put to shame," "cast off as a branch," "saved yet as through fire," or "cast into the outer darkness" temporarily at the second coming of Christ.

Those who are not are those who "overcome" - the overcomers.

Never forget that the eternal age is still preceeded by the 1,000 years millennial kingdom of reward and loss of reward. This is apart from the GIFT of eternal life.


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I prefer to interpret scripture in context rather than from a dispensational perspective.
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I don't think dispensational perspective is necessarily not in context.

Afterall, the theme of the book of Matthew is to repent for the kingdom. It is to repent for not being under God's administration. It is to repent for not being under God's rule and God's governemt.

There is a perspective from our need. But there is also a perspective from the need of God. The opening book of the New Testament is a call to repent for not meeting GOD'S NEED for a governmental realm for His authority to be administered. We are to repent for not living in the kingdom., for not living under God's administration.

The context and perspect are a little different from the man centered approach we are usually accustomed to. We know that we need to repent so that we would not perish. That meets our need.

We are accustomed to "Repent to escape the eternal punishment". We are not as accustomed to "Repent for not living under the kingdom of God."

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Furthermore, Christ rejects them on the grounds that he never knew them. If he had known them, i.e., if they were truly his sheep, then they would not be "workers of iniquity."
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Well dear brother. Without exegesis I would ask you to consider. Is it not a fact that some Christians ARE workers of iniquity? Is it not a sad fact of life that some genuine Christians are lawless in their methods and reckless in their way of working for God?

I don't believe that all those Christian head banging rock musicians are not genuinely born again. I did that stuff and I was saved.

I can't believe that some "teach you to love money" prosperity pastors are not genuine Christian brothers. Many of them are. They believe in the death of Jesus for our sins. They can preach a gospel of the resurrected Christ.

But they can be lawless in their methods and not working according to the principles of the kingdom of the heavens.

Now I respect your difference of opinion. But I say that some of us will be told by the Lord Jesus "I never allowed you to do those things that you did. They were not kingdom of the heavens works. They were YOUR worldly methods, your fleshly operations, your soulish work for your glory. And you did a lot of damage to people and gave some people great opportunity to blaspheme My name. You need some time to be perfected while my obedient servants enjoy the reward of the millennial kingdom. They are overcomers."


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A worker of iniquity is he who does not believe in Christ, who does not repent of sin, who does not live a holy life, and who does not love Christians. He may profess to be a Christian,
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Epi, face it. Face it. It is a fact of life that some born again Christians DO NOT live a holy life. Sometimes you and I do not live a holy life.

No doubt there are false Christians. I would never disagree with that. However you should have noticed that there are some real Christians who love the world and live loosly still loving the sins they lived while unbelievers.

I am afraid that we cannot dismiss all these brothers and sisters as false Christians. In this context the book of Matthew makes more sense to me.

Now consider. Jesus taught that there would be not only forgiveness in this church age, but also forgiveness in the age to come AFTER the church age. Right here:

"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the one to come." (Matt. 12:32)

The strong implication of this verse is that there are some offenses which will be forgiven in the age to come. That is after the Second Coming of Christ. Otherwise the Lord would not warn that such a sin would not receive forgiveness in this age NOR in the coming age.

Am I right ?

"Saved yet as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15)" is vague on how long that fire will last. There is reason to suppose that it is open ended because it is a case by case matter.

Look, the judges of the world have a lot of leeway how to dispense discipline. They may use a less severe means, a medium severe means, and a very severe means. They have a whole range of choices at their disposal.

Now how about Jesus the Righteous Judge? Do you think that He does not have a wide scope of possible ways to deal with us? If you think He is locked into not being able to wisely meet out to each servant as He deems appropriate, I would think that is naive.

Let's put a passage on that concept:

[b]"And the master of that slave will come on a day he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes. But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lasshes.

But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to wh....

"Saved yet as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15)" is vague on how long that fire will last. There is reason to suppose that it is open ended because it is a case by case matter.

Look, the judges of the world have a lot of leeway how to dispense discipline. They may use a less severe means, a medium severe means, and a very severe means. They have a whole range of choices at their disposal.

Now how about Jesus the Righteous Judge? Do you think that He does not have a wide scope of possible ways to deal with us? If you think He is locked into not being able to wisely meet out to each servant as He deems appropriate, I would think that is naive.

Let's put a passage on that concept:

"And the master of that slave will come on a day he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes. But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes.

But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (Luke 12:46-48)

1.) Jesus is speaking about His servants, so they are redeemed.

2.) Assign the non-watching servant his portion with the unbelievers suggests that he will get a taste of what an unbeliever will get.

3.) The punishment will be appropriate to the level of knowledge the servant had about his master's will.

The one who knew better is more harshly punished. The one who had some ignorance about the matter is punished less severely.

I will end this post here.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I am convinced that this could apply to Christians.

But Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37).

Why would Jesus "cast out" those whom he declared he would never cast out?

Note that those folks who are cast out prophesied, cast out demons, and performed m ...[text shortened]... if I can find the exact source, but I'll have to get back to you on that.

Peace.[/b]

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Christ is not talking with genuinely born-again Christians who happen to have struggled with one form of sin or another, from time to time.
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I may agree here. However, there is danger in not growing.

And there is reward and the loss of reward.

And there is saved yet as though through fire.

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It does not necessarily follow that a person is a hypocrite if they succumb to a temptation. A person born of God is still capable of stumbling.
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I agree. I think we are reading about a more serious entrenched life style of a Christian who did not grow in grace.

Especially Jesus said that the merciful will obtain mercy. And worldly Christian who is not merciful is in double danger.

The whole matter of reward and loss of reward (punishment) relates to the thousand year kingdom before the age of eternity begins.

That way the kingdom of the millennial is an incentive to cooperate with the gift of grace.

We do not have to cooperate. Jesus puts before us an incentive to cooperate. IF we choose we may just receive the gift of eternal redemption and continue to live a worldly life. We will not lose the eternal redemption of the eternal age. But we may suffer loss and lose the reward of the millennial kingdom age.

Such ones will have to attend something like "summer school". This summer school will have a different taste to it then the taste of the church age. This remedial "summer school" of 1,000 years will have a different flavor than the age of Grace.

Afterwards ALL those born of God, the rewarded and those who loss the reward, will be matured and perfected and ready for the full New Jerusalem after the millennial kingdom. That is the eternal age.

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That which marks a person as one of Christ's sheep is a continual confession of sin and a putting to death the deeds of the flesh.
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THat is what SHOULD mark one so.

It is a fact of life - some Christians do not have a forgiving heart. They are offended and never forgive. Now when will they confess that sin of unforgiveness?

If not in the church age they will have to be dealt with in the coming kingdom age. And the parable of the unforgiving servant teaches exactly that.

So will His heavenly Father do to each of us Christians unless we learn to forgive one another from our hearts.

That unforgiving servant was punished UNTIL he learned a lesson. I submit to you that that will be the case. But in principle, a normal Christian life should be one of daily cleaning the slate and having a fresh new start whenever he brings his wrong acts under the blood.

Do you not know any unforgiving disciples Epi? When will they learn to forgive that brother as God forgave them? If they go to the grave with that unforgiven offense in thier heart then in the next age they will have to deal with it before God. And the flavor of that dealing will not be as nice as it could be in the church age.


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Christ promised that His sheep would in no wise be cast out, in any manner. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (John 3:18; Romans 8:1). Period.
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Not even temporarily discplined ?

Jesus Christ has a large scope and a great leeway to discipline His children aside from causing them to perish.

This is like assuming that there is only the death penalty and no other remedy in society for a crime. Eternal perdition is not the only means God has.

How could the unforgiving servant be punished until he should pay what he owed? That is temporary.

The old Catholics looked at those verses and came up with Purgatory. Purgatory is not the answer though. The answer is that in the millennial kingdom some defeated saints will be disciplinened though still eternally redeemed.


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I recently read somewhere, I think it was in my handbook of early Christian beliefs, that there were those in Christ's day and during the time of the apostles, who were recognized as not being part of the flock, who yet used Christ's name to perform miracles, prophecy, and cast out demons. I'll see if I can find the exact source, but I'll have to get back to you on that.
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Originally posted by epiphinehas
I also believe that the teachings of Jesus are deep and profound, but much more deep and profound than the "sinless perfection" doctrine suggests.

Jesus never taught sinless perfectionism; he never said that one must achieve a state of sinless perfection before one can be accepted by the Lord.

The Law of God requires sinless perfection, not fection is a heretical teaching you would do well to reject utterly.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Your interpretation really misses the mark. "The will of [His] Father" hangs on the two commandments of Jesus. If His Father's will is not followed, no amount of saying 'Lord, Lord', prophesying, casting out demons, or mighty works are enough to overcome this. Jesus will tell them that He never knew them and tell those who continued to commit sin, i.e. not follow God's will, to depart. Only those who follow His commandments belong to His flock.

John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

You've taken Matt. 19:26 out of the end of the lesson of the rich young ruler. Take it from the beginning:

Matthew 19:16-17
And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jesus is asked what it takes to obtain eternal life. Jesus answers that he must keep the commandments which is consistent with what He says in Matthew 7:21-23. If all the young man needed to do was "believe", then why didn't Jesus say so? Was Jesus not of truth?

The young man asks if there is anything else lacking.

Matthew 19:20-21
The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Jesus reitterates that he must follow Him, i.e., follow His commandments.

Matthew 19:26
26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

And who are "with God"? Those who follow God's will, i.e, the commandments. If people follow their own will, they will not obtain eternal life. In the end the rich young ruler chose to follow his own will.

Originally posted by jaywill
Good questions. I hope I can be brief and clear without being as verbose I would like to be.

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But Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37).

Why would Jesus "cast out" those whom he declared he would never cast out?
============== h will be required from him; and to wh....

By just taking the phrase [b]"cast out" it is difficult to know to what extent He means.[/b]

It isn't difficult to know what extent Christ means if you read "cast out" in its context. That which immediately precedes "cast out" is "never" - "anyone who comes to Me I will never cast out." This means Christ will never ever cast out any of his sheep; not today, not tomorrow, not ever. Outer darkness is not a place any of Christ's sheep will ever experience first hand.

But it is difficult to assume that Christ cannot discipline His wayward disciple in some limited casting out. For example in John 15 some of the branches that do not abide in Him He will cast off [b]"as a branch" (15:6).[/b]

John 15:6 is referring to those who deny and forsake Christ. Those who reject Christ are rejected by Christ, and cast forth as branches, in the manner of those spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-29, who "after [having] received the knowledge of the truth... trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace." These branches which are cast forth and burned are apostates, not merely wayward disciples, and their casting out and suffering are eternal.

I am not comfortable saying that the casted out branch is an unbeliever because such a one is not a branch in the true vine.

As Hebrews 10 attests, it is possible to come to a full and saving knowledge of the truth, yet turn and reject Christ altogether (and in turn be rejected by Christ). That is, it is possible to once have been a branch in the True Vine, and yet be cast forth and burned; "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries" (Heb. 10:26-27).

However, you do have a fornicating Christian whom Paul recommended that the church in Corinth remove from the fellowship until he should repent. (1 Cor. 5:1-5)

But this is an instance which takes place this side of the grave. While our flesh lives the Lord chastises us and disciplines us and we have time to repent. There is no indication that the Lord chastises and disciplines us after we have died. Hebrews 9:27 says that after death comes judgment - no second chances.

Paul spoke of some who would be saved yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15) -

Be careful not to neglect the context of 1 Corinthians 3:15. This verse is hedged in on both sides by Paul addressing ministers of the word in particular. Whatever a teacher builds upon the foundation of Christ will be tested by fire. This has nothing to do with being cast out or burned. It is the works which are burned up, not the minister or teacher himself. Even if one's works are consumed in the testing fire, he or she at least built those works on the right foundation - Christ. By contrast, toward the end of the third chapter of 1 Corinthians it is clear that those who corrupt the church with false doctrine will be destroyed outright.

I submit to you that the most sober and safest interpretation is that some who are eternally saved and secure in eternal redemption, may nonetheless be [b]"put to shame," "cast off as a branch," "saved yet as through fire," or "cast into the outer darkness" temporarily at the second coming of Christ.[/b]

There is an even yet more sober interpretation, that those who have come to a saving knowledge of the truth, are yet able to be eternally lost, given that they refuse to abide in Christ. There is no convincing evidence that their punishment is temporary. Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

Beginning at Matthew 25:31 we have a description of the final judgment, when the Son of Man returns, "he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left... and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

By all indications, death seals the deal. We are judged according to whether we did or did not abide in Christ while we yet breathed. In the day of the Lord the slothful servant who buried his talent will be separated from the sheep and will go away into eternal punishment (i.e., cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth).

Those who are not are those who [b]"overcome" - the overcomers.[/b]

Those who overcome are those who abide in Christ through thick and thin. That is, those who have come to a saving knowledge of the truth, but who have never forsaken Christ or rejected Him.

Epi, face it. Face it. It is a fact of life that some born again Christians DO NOT live a holy life. Sometimes you and I do not live a holy life.

A holy life in the flesh does not entail sinless perfection. What it does entail is repentance. If a man or woman sins without being convicted by the Lord, then he or she is not of the Lord. If a man or woman sins and does not repent, then he or she is in danger of losing everything. But a life lived in continual repentance is a holy life. The yoke of Christ is easy and his burden is light. To sin without repentance is the same as rejecting Christ, because in order to do so one must deny the conviction of sin which the Holy Spirit impresses on the conscience. On the day of judgment such people will fare no better than unbelievers.

The strong implication of this verse is that there are some offenses which will be forgiven in the age to come. That is after the Second Coming of Christ. Otherwise the Lord would not warn that such a sin would not receive forgiveness in this age NOR in the coming age.

Am I right?

I don't think you're right. The day of judgment is the separation of the sheep from the goats; one group being ushered into heaven, and the other into hell (both places of eternal duration). Again, Hebrews 9:27 says that after death comes judgment. Only while we live can we prove our faith by works, and respond to God's chastisement in a positive way. We are only resurrected for the purposes of judgment. God looks at us and sees either Life or Death.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]"Saved yet as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15)" is vague on how long that fire will last. There is reason to suppose that it is open ended because it is a case by case matter.

Look, the judges of the world have a lot of leeway how to dispense discipline. They may use a less severe means, a medium severe means, and a very severe means. They have a whole ...[text shortened]... ome ignorance about the matter is punished less severely.

I will end this post here.[/b]

I think we must take Christ at his word here. The non-watchful servant's portion with the unbelievers is not a "taste", it is eternal. His is the only instance of any of the servants being "cut off". The rest only suffer lashes, few or many, depending on what the Lord deems appropriate. It is only proper that the Lord should reject anyone who rejects Him, regardless of how saved they once where, while those who remain in Him are chastised and disciplined as sons.