Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b] By just taking the phrase [b]"cast out" it is difficult to know to what extent He means.[/b]

It isn't difficult to know what extent Christ means if you read "cast out" in its context. That which immediately precedes "cast out" is "never" - "anyone who comes to Me I will never cast out." This means Christ will never ever cast out any o of judgment. God looks at us and sees either Life or Death.[/b]

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Hebrews 9:27 says that after death comes judgment - no second chances.
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I feel that Hebrews 9:27 refers to the general principle that we must decide to be saved by Christ in the opportunity we have before death.

This passage is not enough by far to disqualify the fact that AFTER the second coming of Jesus and after the saints are resurrected and raptured to meet Him, He brings them before His judgment seat. This judgment seat of Christ is not the great white throne judgment after the millennium in Rev 20. It is the judgment before the millennium to render unto the beleivers according to what was done in thier bodies whether good or bad. Paul expects to be there - "We must all appear ..."

Some will have died and been resurrected to appear there. Hebrews 9:27 may say that there is no second chance to be eternally redeemed if one in this life has refused Christ as Lord and Savior. Hebrews 9:27 cannot be used to prove all the Lord's servants will be rewarded with a reward other than the GIFT of eternal redemption

Clearly, some will suffer loss and other will be rewarded (1 Cor. 3:14,15). For those saved yet as through fire it is not a matter of having a second chance.

But since the dispositional character must be transformed it has to be some time. I think this should not be viewed as a second chance but as disciplinary process for those who are late.

The five foolish virgins had to go and buy oil. When they returned the wedding feast was in progress and they were excluded. However, they did have to pay the price to gain the oil. And oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. See Matthew 25:1-13.

This teaching amounts to some foolish disciples having to pay the price to gain the Holy Spirit in thier souls late. They cannot be the lost because the lost do not have the Holy Spirit. Am I right?

So to be late to pay the price to gain the Holy Spirit only to be excluded from the celebration of the wedding feast must refer to this: Some Christians who would not pay the price to be transformed by the Spirit before the Second Coming, will have to do so afterward. They will "suffer loss" in that they are late for the celebration.

Now one important point which is crucial. All the ten virgins initially had oil in thier lamps. The wise ones had extra oil in thier vessels with their lamps. The foolish only had oil in their lamps. Read the parable carefully.

This must correspond to all believers having the gift of the Holy Spirit in thier human spirit (the lamp) through being born again. This is a gift. But the oil in the vessel with the lamp is extra oil. This is the Holy Spirit worked into the personality and into the soul.

This latter supply of the Spirit is not a gift. It has a price of following the Lord. It must be paid for. Can you see this.

It is a gift to be born again. It requires the paying of a price to be transformed in the soul by the Holy Spirit. Do you agree with this ? If so then the foolish virgins, AFTER the second coming of Christ, had to go off and pay that price which they should have been WISE to pay when they HAD the opportunity.

When they DID come back having gained the Spirit in the soul the celebration was closed to them.

It DOES NOT say that they perished forever. But they did suffer loss.

I must end this post here. Give me a little ,more time to catch up.

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Paul spoke of some who would be saved yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15) -

Be careful not to neglect the context of 1 Corinthians 3:15. This verse is hedged in on both sides by Paul addressing ministers of the word in particular. Whatever a teacher builds upon the foundation of Christ will be tested by fire.
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I think that EACH believer is a builder of God's house. The examination before Christ is not restricted to a certain class of believers but to all believers.

In context now, to BUILD is the GROW spiritually. The growing of the plant on God's farm is the building of the house of God. So everyone who is growing is a builder. It is not that only those who plant and water like Paul and Apollos are builders to be examined. - "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land (farm). (v.9)

Therefore the building of the living temple of God depends upon not only the planting and watering of the apostles but the growing of the life of Christ in the believers.

It may be true that "We are God's fellow workers" refers to the apostles. I would not argue there. But, the saints by growing in the spiritual life are also building upon the foundation.

Not all can lay the foundation of the local church. But all in the local church can build upon the foundation by growing in the divine life.

In context now, to produce gold, silver, precious stones is good for the building. This means to supply into the building the divine nature of the Father (gold), the redemptive work of Christ (silver), and the transformational work of the Holy Spirit (precious stones), is all good for the building up of the New Testament church.

We must build with the work done in us through the Triune God.

In context this must mean to grow on the farm - for we are God's cultivated land, God's BUILDING.

To produce common and worthless things such as wood, grass, and stubble must correspond to injecting ourt old fallen natures into the building operation. These are the things of the natural man who is untransformed. This lack of growing mars the temple. It defiles the temple. It actually damages the temple.

To grow in Christ builds the house of God. To fail to grow but continue to live in the Adamic nature defiles, mars, damages the temple. To remain in the natural damages the New Testament building, the church.

In this context Paul says "If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (3:17)

The church in Corinth is the temple of God. "Do youy not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (v.16)

This is not the individual body of a believer which is also refered to as the temple of the Holy Spirit. God - "your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, whom you have from God..." (1 Cor. 6:19). Chapter 3 refers to the church in Corinth as the temple of the God because collectively the Holy Spirit dwells in the church.

If some one in the church fails to supply the work of the Triune God he is in danger of destroying the temple of God which is holy. If a believer does that he is in danger of being destroyed.

To be destroyed here in context is to suffer loss. The one suffering loss is saved yet so as through fire. This is a destruction but not perdition. The Lord said to His disciples that if we would lose our soul we would save it. But if we would save our soul we would lose it.

The loss of reward therefore must also be the loss of the soul. The soul's pleasure and craving for things other than Christ is destroyed. This is a suffering. Instead of enjoyning one's soul by reigning with the Lord and entering into His joy, that one will suffer the loss of his soul's delight. This is what it must mean that God will destroy this poor builder.

"If anyone destroys the tempe of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you."(v. 17)

In context, the one who is destroyed also has the Holy Spirit. So this destruction cannot be eternal damnation. We know that it is not eternal damnation becuase Paul has told us - "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT ... he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

I submit you, dear brother, that this shows that one having the Holy Spirit who nonetheless did not learn to live holy, and who tried to build up the church with the untransformed and unsanctified fallen Adamic nature, will suffer loss. He will lose his soul's enjoyment. He will be "destroyed" in that sense. He will be saved eternally still, yet so as through fire.

And this possibilty is not excluded only to the apostles like Paul and Apollos but to all who are building upon the foundation of Christ for the church.

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This has nothing to do with being cast out or burned.
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I will agree with you that the fire there is some kind of fire of examination.

However, as I said, the Righteous Judge (2 Tim. 4:8) has a wide scope of possibilites with which to administer. I do NOT say that all will be really burned. I DO say that in SOME very serious cases of backslidding some may be burned really.

So what discipline the Lord will administer may VARY. The worst possible case is to be really burned. Now I must try to prove this to you.

This being burned is what is called "hurt by the second death". It is not to perish eternally in the second death. But some will be hurt by the second death temporarily. Why so?

The Lord Jesus in Revelation told Christians in the church in Smyrna that if they would overcome persecution they would not be hurt of the second death:

"He who has and ear, let him hear what the Spirit saus to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)

This is the reward of the Lord NOT doing something. It is like the Lord telling the Isrealites who came out of Egypt that if they cooperated with Him He would NOT put on them the same diseases that He put on Egypt (See Exodus 15:26)

1.) The audience is Christians who are eternally redeemed.

Today some Christians may be sloppy and assume that nonbelievers are also members of a certain church. But the Lord Jesus would not be that sloppy. So the audience the church in Smyrna, consists of Christians.

2.) The reward is spoken in negative terms. If they overcome Jesus will NOT do something to them. They will NOT be hurt by the second death.

3.) The strong implication is that if they would NOT overcome there is a possibility that they COULD be hurt by the second death. This is perfectly logical otherwise why would the Lord Jesus promise them to be exmpt from something that could never happen to them.

4.) The words "hurt by the second death" come short of declaring that they would perish forever by the second death.

5.) The promise may seem very harsh. But the point is the the Lord is WELL ABLE, and perfectly powerful enough to preserve them through the persecution.

I use to think that Jesus was being too hard on the suffering church in Smyrna to make such a promise to the overcomers. But the point is that they do not overcome in their OWN power but through the one who is well able to perfectly supply them.

He told us that the one that needed to be feared was not the one who kills the body but the one who after the body is killed has authority to further hurt us.

The bottom line here is that in some severe cases some unfaithful and defeated Christians may be hurt by the second death after the second coming of Jesus.

Face it Epi. There are Christian disciples living in a bed of fornication or adultery. I submit to you that in some cases they will not only lose the reward. They may also be burned by fire temprarily.

They may be hurt by the second death. This is not the milk of the word. It may not be the meat of the word. This may be the bones. But we need it.

Think again on the severe warning of Hebrews chapter 10. Think again about the severe warning of Revelation 2:11. I don't think the audience in either case is false brothers but genuine ones.

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It is the works which are burned up, not the minister or teacher himself.
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I agree with that in the Corinthian passage. It is the works and not the minister. As also in Hebrews somewhere it is the fruit of the ground that is burnt and not the ground itself (Heb.6:6-8).


The unfruitful ground is "near a curse" .... "near", but not actually cursed.

Though I agree that the Corinthian passage speaks of the burning of the works I point out to you there is still the destroying of the one who destroys the temple of God. So it is still serious.

And it MAY include burning of the one who is to be hurt of the second death as in Revelation 2:11.

In the New Testament savation a saved one can be one who overcomes or one who is defeated. Many Bible teachers recogtnize levels of reward to those who overcome. But if they would be most logical they would have to admit that there are also levels of punishment for those defeated.

To be burned will probably be the most severe case.

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Even if one's works are consumed in the testing fire, he or she at least built those works on the right foundation - Christ.
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Context, I think, shows that to build with the worthless materials on the right foundation is to mar and destroy the temple of God.

Check your experience. Some churches which are full of fallen Adamic methods of the untransformed soul are a total mess. The testimony of the church is destroyed.

If you have not seen this then I would not argue with you but would say that you are blessed. But I have seen it. I pray to God that by His mercy I would never be a part of it.


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By contrast, toward the end of the third chapter of 1 Corinthians it is clear that those who corrupt the church with false doctrine will be destroyed outright.
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Some redeemed Christians who have the GIFT of eternal life also have some false doctrines. It is a sad fact of life.

I think you should consider the ones who destroy the temple of God in 3:17 to be the ones who are on the cultivated land, on the farm, on the foundation as believers, but they attempt to build the church with what is plentiful, abundant, cheap, and of no value to God's economy.

I don't think that this is necessarily a matter of some immaturity. We are all in the ongoing process of growing. Or we should be at least.

Aggressively attempting to build God's chruch with the Adamic nature strongly ignoring the Christian conscience may be the danger point here.

IE. " I have this money making skill. I know that it is not too much of the Holy Spirit. I know that it is tainted and worldly and of the flesh. But I am so good that I will build up the Lord's church by teaching everybody how to be money grubbers so as to rival even the most worldly schemes. We'll show em that we can make big bucks just like the casinos and the movie theaters."

This is given as a hypothetical example. The Lord may say one day -


"Yes you did that in My name. But I never allowed you to do it. I never acknolwedged it. You hindered a lot of my seeking people. You damaged some Christians. And you gave the worldly opposers great occasion to say that the Gospel of Jesus was evil trash. So you do not get the reward of the kingdom. You have to now go and learn some lessons in the outer darkness, away from my glorious presence, away from Me."

Or better yet He may say "Yes you got on the Internet and preached and debated. But you called some people names and acted terribly sometimes and gave my enemies more ground to blaspheme My name and My church. You need now to go learn some lessons away from Me for 1,000 years. At the end of that 1,000 yars you will be perfected and ready to join those who were overcomers in the eternal GIFT of the eternal life in the endless age of the new heaven and the new earth. "

(You may have thought I would leave out that example. But I consider my own ways in this matter very much also.)

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There is an even yet more sober interpretation, that those who have come to a saving knowledge of the truth, are yet able to be eternally lost, given that they refuse to abide in Christ.
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It is hard to think of the addresses in Hebrews 10:19-39 as not truly saved.

I respect your view. And in any case to reject Christ is serious. But these ones are in need not of basic salvation but "endurance" (v.36)

They are told not to cast away their boldness which has great reward (v.35)

So I think this is a matter of warning not to lose the great reward, but continue to endure as a true disciple. Serious concequences could result by being defeated. In this specific case I think the writer was refering to early Hebrew Christian brothers who were wavering and tempted to return to Judiasm.

This most have occured in those days. Some after awhile thought to inslt the Spirit of grace within them and return to bulls and goats of the old way trampling what they had beleived and received of the gospel of Christ.

The writer warns of the seriousness of this. And it is not possible for them to now replace Christ with those bulls and goats. Neither is it necessary and neither is it right to do so.


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There is no convincing evidence that their punishment is temporary. Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."
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How do you feel about the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:23-35?

The conclusion of the teaching is this "So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from his heart."

The teaching of the parable is says concerningthat the unforgiving servant is "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repau all that he owed. So shall My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgivve his brother from his heart." (v.34,35)

This is a punishment UNTIL ... a certain time. That is temporary.

Now the issue is could Jesus only be speaking about a discipline during the church age? I doubt.


This seems to be a dealing that the Master will have with His servants AFTER He returns to settle account with them. I submit that some who are saved will be reminded of their grudges and unforgiven offenses that they have not relinquished. They held on to thier unforgiving grudge until death or until the second coming of Jesus.

"Then his master CALLED HIM TO [HIM] ..." I think refers to us appearing as Christians before the judgment seat of Christ as Paul warned.

"Then his master called him to him and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?" (Matt. 18:32,33)

Consider. Last month I confessed some sins. The Lord forgave me. Last week I confessed more sins. The Lord forgave me. Yesterday I confessed some more mistakes. The Lord forgave me.

Now some fellow servant offends me. Perhaps he rebuked me and made me feel bad. I don't forgive this week. I don't forgive next week. I don't forgive next month. I hold on to that offense for a year. I don't forget what the brother did to me for ten years. I grow old and die 80 years old and never have forgiven or forgotten what the offense was. It caused misery to the church and sadness to many fellow Christians. It caused me to lose my enjoyment of the Lord.

Now the Lord comes back and I come before Him. I still have that offense in my heart. Death has not caused me to be transformed. His second coming didn't automatically cause me to forgive. When am I going to learn to forgive that brother?

Jesus may say in essence. "You don't remember all the times I forgave YOU?? And you could not forgive that offense even though that brother apologized? Even if he didn't apologize you never considered HOW MANY times you offended God and He forgave YOU??

Sorry my child. You have to learn some lessons. While my overcomers are enjoying the kingdom reign on the earth, YOU will be under some suffering UNTIL you learn to forgive and forget about what the fellow servant of Mine did to you."

I'll conclude this respone here. Thanks for time to catch up. I have a couple more points.

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Beginning at Matthew 25:31 we have a description of the final judgment, when the Son of Man returns, "he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left... and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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This is not the final judgment of human beings. This is the judgment before the millennial kingdom soon after the second coming of Christ.

This judgment is 1,000 years before the judgment of the great white throne after the millennial kingdom.

This judgment in Matthew 25 is of the Gentiles or the nations. This is the judgment of those living on the earth at the time of the second coming of Christ. This is not the judgment of the dead but of those living on the earth when Jesus returns physically.

This judgment involves three parties:

1.) Sheep
2.) Goats
3.) These the least of His brothers.

The judgment is not based on response to the gospel of grace. It is based on how they nations at the end times treated the least of the brothers of the Lord Jesus - the Jews and the Christians.

This judgment relates to the behavior of the living people who pass through the great tribulation. The least of the brothers of the Lord are not judged here. They are the criteria against which the sheep and the goats are judged.

The least of these the Lord's brothers cannot be among either the sheep or the goats because the sheep and goats are judged according to how they treated the least of the Lord's brothers.

This judgement is carried out from the throne of Christ's glory which will be in Jerusalem. The reward is to inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. This would refer to the enjoyment of the earth as it was prepared for Adam when he was created and before he fell into sin.

This judgment in Matthew 25 is concerning the kingom which is said to be established for 1,000 years six times in Revelation 20.

1.) The Dragon Satan is bound for 1,000 years - (Rev.20:2).
2.) The Devil deceives the nation no more for 1,000 years (v.3)
3.) Certain saints are to reign with Christ for 1,000 years (v.4).
4.) The rest of the dead arise not until after the 1,000 years (v.5)
5.) The priests reign with Christ for 1,000 years (v.6)
6.) Satan is released from his prison after the 1,000 years (v.7)

This is all in Revelation 20. The eternal age does not begin until AFTER the 1,000 years. And the final judgment of the "great white throne" is only mentioned after the conclusion of the 1,000 years (v.11,12)

Therefore the judgment at the commencement of the 1,000 years of the living nations is not the same judgment of the dead at the conclusion of that same period of 1,000 years.

Of course Jesus is the judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim. 4:1; Rom. 2:16). He is not their judge necessarily at the same time.

This is not an exhaustive word on Matthew 25:31-46.
It is likely to leave many questions lingering. However let me say this. In order for there to be some people for Christ and His co-kings to reign over, some people must be preserved through the great tribulation and transfered into that next age.

For the saints to reign should not mean that they reign over each other.

So the sheep nations enter into a state of everlasting life such as Adam had before he fell. They are restored to be like Adam was from the foundation of the world - innocent and with not particular reason to die. Healed, shepherded, and cared for by the co-kings and co-priests who are rewarded to reign during that period with Christ.

Who else are the saints of Christ going to have to reign over ?

Basically, the sheep nations did not follow Antichrist. And the goat nations did follow Antichrist. That is what this judgment is about in Matthew 25:31-46. Further proofs are available if more reasons are needed.