1. Subscribersonhouse
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    25 Jun '14 13:46
    I have always said all religions are just made up by men and attributes given to some god or other with the idea that making a god with human like attributes can help to gain followers who could not follow more complex concepts.

    That said, this is in response to Vistesd post in my other thread about what I though a god should be like:

    I said a god would above all show total love. Even that may be a human attribute we would give to a god.

    So what may a real god be like? Perhaps as a guide. It would know what the universe would be doing at the beginning, middle and end.

    So knowing there are various kinds of evolution going on in the universe, evolution of energy, gasses, evolution of all that into stars, into galaxies and so forth, stars come and go, the brightest and most energetic lasting only a few million years, the smaller ones hanging around for billions of years, the galaxies in their stately evolution, crashing into one another, generating black holes and such changing shapes from spiral to elliptical after a couple of galactic collisions and so forth.

    Then the generation of planets from the dust of older stars that blew up and gave the universe the heavy elements, iron, uranium, argon, oxygen, and so forth, all in the dust that pervades most of inter galactic space.

    Those planets developing with different evolutionary paths depending on the distance to its host star, and how the planets shuffle each other around after they get big.

    We know all that because we see stars and galaxies by the billions and therefore have from our small world and slice of time, we can put together what came first and how they develop so we can suss out the evolution so far of the universe based on evidence.

    We see the same thing here on Earth, the evidence for biological evolution based on close observations of Earth by literally millions of scientists over the last 500 or so years in every field, from Astronomy to Zoology.

    Some of you say there is this vast conspiracy to keep creationism out of the picture but it is clearly that we in the 21st century have a much better handle on how things got the way they are today than we ever had a thousand, or ten thousand years ago.

    So back then, as now, genius appears, like the first known medical genius Immotep, who pretty much founded modern medicine thousands of years ago.

    So these geniuses come along maybe every hundred to three hundred years or so, most of their genius lost to humanity because say, one particular genius dies at the age of 2 because of disease, another lives his or her lifespan fully but is in a tribe isolated from humanity like say, the deep jungles of the Amazon and so their genius pretty much dies with them.

    One example is the ancient Byzantium battery. Electricity was known to them and they even invented electro-chemistry and were able to put gold and silver plate onto brass and such.

    The genius who invented all that, however, was tied to the religion of the day, probably some buried monk, and he invented the battery and electrochemistry.

    But my thesis is he died before he could give his story to his acolytes and then, no more knowledge of electricity for a few thousand years.

    The idea there is we need feedback to keep something like that alive.

    In religion, we have all these disparate religions, usually at each other's throats and each one was started by some genius who saw what was happening around him or her in the civilization he or she lived in and saw what could make it better.

    My stance is they invent what they thought attributes a god should have that would make sense to ordinary people who could not think very complex thoughts and so followed the originator because he or she referred to this god as the inspiration.

    Now that religion gets started and it begins to evolve like everything else.

    Take Islam as an example. Mohammed starts his religion, we may feel he is some kind of genius who saw things as they were and wanted to change them, so Islam was born. But after his death two brothers fought with each other and now they are Sunni vs Shia, and they are killing each other today.

    And the same with Christianity, Jesus had his genius ways and tried to get them spread into the community but after his death, the people left over started making it into their own version, like Paul who wanted to impress the Romans and ended up with Rome converting to Christianity but something far removed from the teachings of Jesus.

    I am leading to a point here!

    What I see is this: A real god I have always said would not say it was a jealous god because a god, being so far above us in morality and such would at best show unconditional love for everything it created in this universe, assuming this god created the universe and all in it.

    That may not even be the case but for the sake of argument we suppose this god invented the universe and would know the beginning, middle and end of said universe and would know what planets develop life and which ones don't and so forth, and on the planets with life would know each stage of its development as far as lifeforms are concerned.

    So what do I see as missing from modern religions, the Abrahamic ones and the rest?

    Feedback. It was lack of feedback that lost electricity to mankind for thousands of years and it is lack of godly feedback that keeps all these disparate religions at war with each other from time to time and for varying levels of time for the wars, like Islam V Christianity, been going on for over a thousand years.

    A god, a REAL god, one who with a wave of its rhetorical hands, poofed our universe into reality, knowing the beginning, middle and end, would know full well the outcome of religions supposedly inspired by said god.

    So suppose the god of Mohammed inspired Islam. It would have known well in advance the brothers would be fighting over the spoils and would start wars with one another.

    Lack of feedback about that situation which could not be a good thing from this god's POV, this god not speaking out to the brothers when it could have avoided all that future bloodshed, says to me a god would not start a religion only to abandon it to its fate later from the effects of lesser men taking over. Only feedback would have kept these people in line and present a united front to the world.

    No united front tells me there was no godly inspiration at all, just the thoughts of one genius who could only personally effect the lives of those physically around him or her during their life. After they die, it is up to other, lesser minds to keep up the 'good work'.

    But being lesser minds they fritter away the original meaning and it deteriorates to wars even among themselves.

    This lack of feedback is clear from all the religions on Earth, a religion starts and may be all love and flower children at first but then it inevitably deteriorates later when the originator dies.

    My thesis is, a god would not stand by and let lesser minds pervert the original message and it would take said god sticking its rhetorical nose in it every few years to keep a religion on the original track.

    So suppose a real god started a religion, say ten thousand years ago.

    I say, a real god would not need to make a hierarchical religion at all.

    I say a real god could just speak out its mind to every mind on the planet and to every mind on every planet in its time.

    That is my take on it but suppose that is wrong, it WANTS a hierarchical religion.

    So it gives its message to a lucky recipient and the word spreads. That is, till the messenger dies.

    Then lesser minds take over, pervert the religion with results we see so sadly today.

    That lack of feedback to keep a religion on its original track is what I say is the most damning evidence all these religions are man made in the first place.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
  2. Standard memberDeepThought
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    25 Jun '14 14:33
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I have always said all religions are just made up by men and attributes given to some god or other with the idea that making a god with human like attributes can help to gain followers who could not follow more complex concepts.

    That said, this is in response to Vistesd post in my other thread about what I though a god should be like:

    I said a god wou ...[text shortened]... all these religions are man made in the first place.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    So you are saying that, pretty much independently of a creator God's nature, the doctrines of religions tend to reflect the interests of the more powerful groups in any society.

    I've got a quibble with what you wrote. Early societies tended to be animistic so their understand of Science was severely affected by it. Electricity wouldn't really have surprised them, as they expected inanimate matter to have a spirit. The problem is that their lack of focus on what we would call theory made their knowledge vulnerable to loss.
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    25 Jun '14 15:06
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    So you are saying that, pretty much independently of a creator God's nature, the doctrines of religions tend to reflect the interests of the more powerful groups in any society.

    I've got a quibble with what you wrote. Early societies tended to be animistic so their understand of Science was severely affected by it. Electricity wouldn't really have s ...[text shortened]... s that their lack of focus on what we would call theory made their knowledge vulnerable to loss.
    Yes, early societies could have viewed electricity as some kind of spirit, they had the gods of thunder and lightning and such and the ancient Greeks had some experience with at least static electricity, there was said to be electrical testing machines that would deliver a shock to see how good you were in holding on, but that never progressed to a wider usage.

    On the religion thing, reflecting the interests of the powerful groups is just another way of saying there was no feedback from this alleged god, that some religion starts up and then goes freewheeling out into other area's not envisioned by the originator. Like the split of Islam and the many sects or denominations if you don't like 'sects' of Christianity.

    That aside from the fact that a real god could just whisper in the ear of every sentient on the planet or any other planet with sentient beings at the same time, even guiding unconsciously if you will. I don't see any sign of that happening either so said god may not even exist, just a figment of imagination or said god exists and considers life forms on their own to stew in their own juices to go extinct or rise above all that and make something much better, perhaps to go on to a god like trail themselves, bootstrapping themselves to godhood on their own.

    Maybe that is the destiny of mankind if we don't off ourselves with the many methods available today!
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Jun '14 19:251 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Yes, early societies could have viewed electricity as some kind of spirit, they had the gods of thunder and lightning and such and the ancient Greeks had some experience with at least static electricity, there was said to be electrical testing machines that would deliver a shock to see how good you were in holding on, but that never progressed to a wider us ...[text shortened]... that is the destiny of mankind if we don't off ourselves with the many methods available today!
    If we are no more than the product of a primordial soup, as your science buddies claim, then what does it matter if we are able to survive or not?
  5. Standard memberDeepThought
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    25 Jun '14 22:08
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If we are no more than the product of a primordial soup, as your science buddies claim, then what does it matter if we are able to survive or not?
    It does to us. Just a point though, in your other thread you were talking about the End of Days - how does that fit with your comment here.
  6. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    25 Jun '14 22:39
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I have always said all religions are just made up by men and attributes given to some god or other with the idea that making a god with human like attributes can help to gain followers who could not follow more complex concepts.

    That said, this is in response to Vistesd post in my other thread about what I though a god should be like:

    I said a god wou ...[text shortened]... all these religions are man made in the first place.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    "I said a god would above all show total love..." (OP)

    Would you allow for integrity (the divine attributes of righteousness and justice) to combine with love?
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    25 Jun '14 23:58
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I have always said all religions are just made up by men and attributes given to some god or other with the idea that making a god with human like attributes can help to gain followers who could not follow more complex concepts.

    That said, this is in response to Vistesd post in my other thread about what I though a god should be like:

    I said a god wou ...[text shortened]... all these religions are man made in the first place.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    A religion without a god.

    Very clever sonhouse. Publish it. Soon you will have many followers and money pouring into the coffers.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    26 Jun '14 03:48
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    It does to us. Just a point though, in your other thread you were talking about the End of Days - how does that fit with your comment here.
    It does not fit anywhere, if we are just products of a primodial soup. The End of Days only fits if we were created by an intelligent being that had a purpose for us when he created us. Then, the End of Days is the time when final accounting is due and judgment is made as to the future role of each individual and mankind as a whole. At least, that is the way I understand it.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    26 Jun '14 03:52
    Originally posted by josephw
    A religion without a god.

    Very clever sonhouse. Publish it. Soon you will have many followers and money pouring into the coffers.
    Sonhouse has become the god of his own man-made religion.
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    26 Jun '14 09:432 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    A religion without a god.

    Very clever sonhouse. Publish it. Soon you will have many followers and money pouring into the coffers.
    I gather you have not heard of Buddhism? Been there, done that. Not that I consider myself a Buddhist, but that is one of the tenants of that religion. If you can call it a religion. More like a life path.

    Which is not to say Buddhism is free from violence. Perhaps not as much world wide as Islam or Christianity, but they are not as kumbya as they wish to be seen.
  11. Standard memberKellyJayonline
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    26 Jun '14 09:50
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I have always said all religions are just made up by men and attributes given to some god or other with the idea that making a god with human like attributes can help to gain followers who could not follow more complex concepts.

    That said, this is in response to Vistesd post in my other thread about what I though a god should be like:

    I said a god wou ...[text shortened]... all these religions are man made in the first place.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Don't agree with you, but I will say this you put your thoughts/beliefs
    out there. So my hat is off to you! 🙂
    Kelly
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    26 Jun '14 09:52
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Sonhouse has become the god of his own man-made religion.
    So you have jumped from reading a critique to the idea I have started a new religion? You are truly delusional.

    If I was a money grubbing assshole like a lot of other so-called big tent theists, perhaps I could but I never pursued a lifestyle that included millions of dollars. I would have been quite happy playing Irish music or old timey American, which I have and do now, it just can't support us so I have to do this technological thing that I am also very good at.

    The furthest thing from my mind is to make yet another despised religion.

    Gag me with a spoon.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    26 Jun '14 09:54
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Don't agree with you, but I will say this you put your thoughts/beliefs
    out there. So my hat is off to you! 🙂
    Kelly
    I have thought long and hard about this God/god religion thing and these are my conclusions. I suppose I could expand on it in a long winded book but I don't have time for that nonsense. I put the whole thing on one page and that's pretty much where it will stand.

    The key word, Feedback, totally lacking from these Gods.
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    26 Jun '14 11:05
    Originally posted by josephw
    A religion without a god.

    Very clever sonhouse. Publish it. Soon you will have many followers and money pouring into the coffers.
    Do you think a religion without a god is not possible?

    I'm inclined to agree, but I've seen quite a few theists here claim that atheism is also a religion.

    You disgree with that then?
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    26 Jun '14 11:06
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I gather you have not heard of Buddhism? Been there, done that. Not that I consider myself a Buddhist, but that is one of the tenants of that religion. If you can call it a religion. More like a life path.

    Which is not to say Buddhism is free from violence. Perhaps not as much world wide as Islam or Christianity, but they are not as kumbya as they wish to be seen.
    "More like a life path."

    Been there, done that too. There are many paths. The path trod by Cain is now the broad way that many are on, but the true path of the only life that matters is narrow, and few find it.

    You seem to think that violence is primarily the domain of religion, but that would be false. Violence is in the general domain of mankind, and widespread over the whole landscape of human experience across the span of all time, and cannot legitimately by laid at the feet of any particular nation, religion or any other institution created by men.

    If you really stop and think about it, violence is in the heart of anyone the causes harm to another without a cause, especially against children, regardless of one's political or religious position.

    But what makes that violence especially egregious is when the perpetrator claims to be morally upright by virtue of his 'religious' affiliation.

    That much I'll give you.
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