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    11 Jan '18 06:001 edit
    Today I learned that the native Mexican religious tradition has it that we each die three times, or one might say in three steps. First, our heart stops beating. We are still present, in body, but absent, in action, Then we are buried or otherwise decomposed, and sooner or later are no longer present in body, but are remembered and still actually live, because of being remembered.

    While our hearts beat we can influence the happiness or sadness we will experience in this second time, We are PRESENT in this second phase as long as we are remembered, and the happiness or sadness we experience in this second time depends on what we did when our hearts were beating,

    The day of the dead, or days of the dead, are remembered at this time. We are present with those who remember us,

    Then, the third and final death is when no one remembers us, This is when all memories, for good or bad, go away, and we are finally free and at rest.

    The Day of the Dead is central to the middle phase, as it reminds us to remember, and urges us to act in ways such that we are well remembered, I guess it is the link to ethics, which every religious tradition makes.

    I am sure some scholar can find holes in this but I like it.

    This matches up with mortal life, then salvation or damnation, and then annihilation, pretty well.
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    11 Jan '18 06:52
    Originally posted by @js357
    Then, the third and final death is when no one remembers us, This is when all memories, for good or bad, go away, and we are finally free and at rest.
    People who are famous or infamous are perhaps immortalized by the books that are written about them because there may not come a point "when all memories, for good or bad, go away".
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    11 Jan '18 12:55
    Originally posted by @fmf
    People who are famous or infamous are perhaps immortalized by the books that are written about them because there may not come a point "when all memories, for good or bad, go away".
    In Terry Pratchett's book Small Gods the small gods are those who will cease to exist when no one believes in them.
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    11 Jan '18 12:57
    Originally posted by @js357
    In Terry Pratchett's book Small Gods the small gods are those who will cease to exist when no one believes in them.
    I have always believed in Terry Pratchett; I hope he doesn't cease to exist once you and I are gone.
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    11 Jan '18 22:06
    Originally posted by @fmf
    People who are famous or infamous are perhaps immortalized by the books that are written about them because there may not come a point "when all memories, for good or bad, go away".
    I don’t buy this vision of immortalisation, it’s nice to think that one is remembered after one has gone, but if you cannot think because your brain is a pool of sludge then what does it matter.
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    11 Jan '18 23:58
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    I don’t buy this vision of immortalisation, it’s nice to think that one is remembered after one has gone, but if you cannot think because your brain is a pool of sludge then what does it matter.
    As far as I am aware, the only phenomenon there is that one might describe as "life after death" is the fact that we live on in people's memories.

    Books that 'immortalise'0 people keep that memory alive longer and pwople even pass a version of it down to later generations. I am not aware of any other kind of immortality.
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    12 Jan '18 00:19
    Originally posted by @fmf
    As far as I am aware, the only phenomenon there is that one might describe as "life after death" is the fact that we live on in people's memories.

    Books that 'immortalise'0 people keep that memory alive longer and pwople even pass a version of it down to later generations. I am not aware of any other kind of immortality.
    It is infinitely better to be remembered than not, that is truth.
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    12 Jan '18 15:35
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    It is infinitely better to be remembered than not, that is truth.
    Better to be well-remembered, yes.

    I'm not sure I can properly understand or relate to the kind of existence that DotD believers have in mind when they believe that the departed exist due to being remembered. Typical expressions like "he lives in our memory" are not taken literally in modern Western culture. I believe traditional Mexican native DotD culture takes this statement literally, although I have no idea how many literalist believers there are. Even to analyze it like this is not something the believers will do. To them, the physically (buried) dead are literally with them, to the extent that they remember them, and literally only cease to exist when no longer remembered. As FMF points out, modern technologies (even just writing, moreover, photography and videography) complicate things. I wonder how their belief system handles this.
  9. Standard memberapathist
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    14 Jan '18 02:131 edit
    Originally posted by @fmf
    I have always believed in Terry Pratchett; I hope he doesn't cease to exist once you and I are gone.
    1) I don't like thread necromancy. Bread should be fresh.

    2) Pratchett died two or three years ago. I Ioved his Discworld series and especially the collaborations that gave us 'The Science of Discworld'.

    My favorite character from his work is Tears of the Mushroom.

    3) to JS357: the dead are no less dead just because we remember them. But! What is it you remember about them; what qualities have been transferred into you. How has their existence affected you.

    I'm saying we are not individuals after all.
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    14 Jan '18 03:46
    Originally posted by @apathist
    I'm saying we are not individuals after all.
    I'd say that, while we are alive, our each and every separate identity (personhood) is defined by the unique, continuous narrative for which we are the one and only authors and witnesses to.

    That complete version of that narrative is what makes us individuals. When we die, it is lost and clearly we are not individuals anymore.

    The only remaining narrative is a very incomplete patchwork of ideas that may be pieced together by those who remember us and those who were affected by our actions (if they were aware of us).
  11. Standard memberapathist
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    14 Jan '18 04:16
    FMF: of course. I'm saying that what you express will affect everyone and that effect has no necessary limit. Is this a new idea?
  12. Standard memberapathist
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    14 Jan '18 04:21
    I didn't express that well. Of course when we die we are dead, and dead is dead. But for example let's say you care about kids, and when you die your kids have already learned from you to care about kids, how have you not changed the world?
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    14 Jan '18 04:24
    Originally posted by @apathist
    FMF: of course. I'm saying that what you express will affect everyone and that effect has no necessary limit. Is this a new idea?
    Perhaps the effects you have on other individuals form part of THEIR each and every personhood (i.e. narrative) rather than yours. Your perceptions of affecting them in those ways then form part of your personhood. 😉
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    14 Jan '18 15:29
    Originally posted by @apathist
    1) I don't like thread necromancy. Bread should be fresh.

    2) Pratchett died two or three years ago. I Ioved his Discworld series and especially the collaborations that gave us 'The Science of Discworld'.

    My favorite character from his work is Tears of the Mushroom.

    3) to JS357: the dead are no less dead just because we remember them. But! ...[text shortened]... into you. How has their existence affected you.

    I'm saying we are not individuals after all.
    I would not be surprised to hear that like each of the Abrahamic religions, traditional Mexican religion that honors the dead comes in varying flavors of literalness. It's also probably too narrow to call it Mexican.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    14 Jan '18 22:27
    He who dies with most knowledge wins 🙂
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