death

Originally posted by twhitehead
I looked up theist and pantheist on wikipedia and concluded that a pantheist is not a theist by the definitions given.

Wikipedia. "Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities." "Pantheism is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent."

Pantheism is clearly a variation on theism.

Please tell me the point of your obsession with grey areas. Yes, I understand that things don't always fit neatly into the mental categories human beings have created. So what?

Originally posted by twhitehead
"I challenge you, or anyone else who thinks that there is an entity called the soul, to give a definition, at least list some of its properties.
For example:
1. Is it conscious?
2. Is its consciousness separate from ours?
3. If we go mad, does it go mad too?
4. Does its consciousness extend from ours after death?
5. Does it have our memories?
6. If we loose memories, does it loose them too?
7. Without the physical body, can it see, feel, hear etc?
8. Can it experience emotions? Keep in mind here that our emotions are driven at least in part, by the chemistry of the body."

My defintion of a soul is:
A soul is a something (let's call it entity) that can't be detected by any instrument. It's an entity that sometimes chooses to live in a body and commands it. Everything I do in this world is somehow initiated by my soul.
An analogy would be (though not perfect) a driver and a car. The car can't do anything in itself, the driver initiates all actions made by the car. I see the body I live in as the car and my soul as the driver.
My soul experiences or is aware of everything my body experiences including emotions.
When I or my soul decides it does not want to be connected to my body then my body dies. Clearly I identify myself with my soul.
I think when a soul wants to be connected to a (baby) body there's agreement on soul level between the soul of the parents and the soul of the baby that a baby will be created by means of sex/biology. The soul connects to the baby then. Should the soul decide after a while that it doesn't want to be connected anymore then there's a miscarriage.
I think I decided to enter this human world because I wanted to work on some problems I had at the time just before birth. The higher purpose of my soul is to get to know myself (at least know myself better then I did before).
Concerning memories after death of the body I think the soul has access to them. I do not know that from own experience (meaning I am not aware of it) but there are numerous people that know their former lives (I know most scientists do not accept that).
Futhermore I think (though not 100% sure) that a soul can create it's human life exactly how the soul wants it to be and in fact does that all the time.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Wikipedia. "Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities." "Pantheism is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent."

Pantheism is clearly a variation on theism.

You should have gone a step futher with:
Deity:
A deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshiped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

Does your abstract God fit that?

Please tell me the point of your obsession with grey areas. Yes, I understand that things don't always fit neatly into the mental categories human beings have created. So what?
So some theists talk about their souls being judged, or going to heaven or hell etc etc. That would be rather meaningless for a gray edged soul. eg God sends 90% of you to hell, 5% to heaven and the remaining 5% just vanishes into nothingness.... 🙂

You talk about life, and appear to be assigning some special properties to it with your 'principle of life' which you refuse to define (very telling), yet ignore the fact that the very definition of life is a man made construct and thus nothing can truly be said to exist that is rooted on that definition.

However, I really don't see the point of continuing the discussion as you appear to not want to tackle the issue. I would be interested in the reasons for your avoidance if you are willing to share them.

I guess I will have to add you to my list of theists /pantheists who talk about a soul but will not define or discuss it in anything more than a vague manner.

Originally posted by Quirine
My defintion of a soul is:
A soul is a something (let's call it entity) that can't be detected by any instrument. It's an entity that sometimes chooses to live in a body and commands it. Everything I do in this world is somehow initiated by my soul.
An analogy would be (though not perfect) a driver and a car. The car can't do anything in itself, the driver ...[text shortened]... it's human life exactly how the soul wants it to be and in fact does that all the time.

Good, someone willing to tackle the issue.

Now please clarify a couple of things for me:

1. If you forget something, does your soul forget it too?
2. If you go mad, does your soul go mad too? (a car that appears drunk usually has a drunk driver).


I do not know that from own experience (meaning I am not aware of it) but there are numerous people that know their former lives (I know most scientists do not accept that).
With good reason. It would be relatively easy for such a person to prove their claim scientifically. Since I have not seen any article covering it in respected science magazines, either they have reason not to provide such proof, or some shadowy government agency is making sure it doesn't happen. 🙂

Originally posted by twhitehead
Good, someone willing to tackle the issue.

Now please clarify a couple of things for me:

1. If you forget something, does your soul forget it too?
2. If you go mad, does your soul go mad too? (a car that appears drunk usually has a drunk driver).


[b]I do not know that from own experience (meaning I am not aware of it) but there are numerous pe ...[text shortened]... t to provide such proof, or some shadowy government agency is making sure it doesn't happen. 🙂

"1. If you forget something, does your soul forget it too?
2. If you go mad, does your soul go mad too? (a car that appears drunk usually has a drunk driver)."

define "you" please. Do you mean body with "you"?

Originally posted by twhitehead

You talk about life, and appear to be assigning some special properties to it with your 'principle of life' which you refuse to define (very telling), yet ignore the fact that the very definition of life is a man made construct and thus nothing can truly be said to exist that is rooted on that definition.

However, I really don't see the point of cont ...[text shortened]... who talk about a soul but will not define or discuss it in anything more than a vague manner.

No, I said 'the principle of life' is whatever makes DNA work. I defer to your knowledge on what that might be. What is it?

I gather that you are an atheist. Since atheism is a man-made construct, I happily conclude that you don't exist.

I did actually put in a disclaimer that I'm agnostic about souls, but was willingly to discuss it for argument's sake. I find such labels useful only to monomaniacal logic-choppers such as yourself.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You should have gone a step futher with:
Deity:
A deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshiped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

Does your abstract God fit that?

Yes, moron. From the same article:

"Pantheism considers the universe itself to be a deity."

Originally posted by twhitehead
It would be relatively easy for such a person to prove their claim scientifically.

That should clear things up. So, what would this 'easy' method be?

Originally posted by Quirine
"1. If you forget something, does your soul forget it too?
2. If you go mad, does your soul go mad too? (a car that appears drunk usually has a drunk driver)."

define "you" please. Do you mean body with "you"?

I am referring to the apparent entity that is typing the post. If I ask the typist, what happened 5 years ago today and the answer is "I don't remember" then 'you' is the entity that did not remember. I want to know if your soul might remember something that the body it controls, denies knowledge of.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
No, I said 'the principle of life' is whatever makes DNA work. I defer to your knowledge on what that might be. What is it?

I missed that post it seems.
Chemistry? Physics? What do you mean by 'makes it work'? The source of energy perhaps?
Why pick on DNA? DNA is not equivalent to life. Do you think the above principle does not apply to RNA? What about proteins or other less complex molecules?
Do you have similar concepts about what makes water molecules work? Can we call that 'water soul'?

I gather that you are an atheist. Since atheism is a man-made construct, I happily conclude that you don't exist.
You missed the point. If you said that there exists an electric field around only atheists then I would say it does not exist.

I did actually put in a disclaimer that I'm agnostic about souls, but was willingly to discuss it for argument's sake. I find such labels useful only to monomaniacal logic-choppers such as yourself.
I still cannot see how someone can be agnostic about something that they are vague about in the first place. It is almost incoherent to have a belief stance on something that is poorly defined. But then if you are a pantheist, the Wikipedia explanation of pantheism looks to me like a bunch of people who love swimming in vagueness and warm fuzzy feelings - an attempt to vaguely give the universe a god-like status without being specific about what that entails.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So, am I correct in saying that you believe, that after your death, some entity, that is to some degree connected to you, but is incapable of thought will be judged, marked in some way then await the day of attonement to enter one gate or the other?
So, why is that important to you? Do you see that unthinking entity as you? Why do you even care about its future?

it will be me my life as i lived it. i care yes as my thoughts and deeds will go with it and the flesh that we see returns to dust

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Assuming that the 'selfish gene' hypothesis is correct -- what gives DNA that 'selfish' quality?

I missed this post. The 'selfish gene' hypothesis is about genes not DNA. DNA is not selfish, genes are. And they are no more selfish than hard rocks on a mountain which do not erode as easily as softer rocks. The 'selfish gene' hypothesis is simply a mathematical outcome of replication, so if your soul exists then computer programs can have souls too.

Originally posted by stoker
it will be me my life as i lived it. i care yes as my thoughts and deeds will go with it and the flesh that we see returns to dust

But it, itself, cannot think? I presume you meant memories of your thoughts and deeds?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yes, moron. From the same article:

"Pantheism considers the universe itself to be a deity."

Sorry, I guess I lack the intellectual capacity to understand such concepts. The universe as a deity? Nope, cant picture it.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
That should clear things up. So, what would this 'easy' method be?

He said: "there are numerous people that know their former lives".
I suppose one could use similar methods to those used in courts to verify whether someone is telling the truth about his experience of events.