Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'm just feeling my way really.

What interests me of course is the link between mind (and there I think you are right about parapsychology) and matter. Co-extensive or separate?

I know you are, but I'm trying to get you back on track. 🙂

Pantheism doesn't really require the paranormal and that's what makes it a good challenge for this topic. The equivalence of God with nature is a much harder concept to break and this makes it a good test for one's ideas.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Indeed -- so what does that mean? What can be done with it?

It means that the mind is being convinced that it is "near death" when it is not. This implies that it is a physical reaction and not as mysterious or as spiritual as many think.

In fact, I remember hearing on doctor/scientist talking about them and he mentioned that he expects we are going to see a lot more near death experiences as we go forward because medical science is getting better at being able to save someone closer and closer to death.

Originally posted by Palynka
[b]"It does not say anything about claims made by parapsychology being true or not."
I didn't say it didn't. However, being dismissed as a pseudo-science reflects the fact their inability to support their claims by actual evidence. This lack of substantiation of such claims means that you have to take such assertions on faith. Personally, I'm not willin ...[text shortened]... rectly. There are many examples of indirect measurements being accepted as "science".[/b]

Originally posted by Palynka "Anything that can impact our world can be measured. If not directly, then indirectly. There are many examples of indirect measurements being accepted as "science"."

But also a lot of indirect measurements are not being accepted as "science".

About parapsychology I must say that I know little of what they are claiming.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
It means that the mind is being convinced that it is "near death" when it is not. This implies that it is a physical reaction and not as mysterious or as spiritual as many think.

That was implicit in your earlier post. My question is -- and then? Can we use the artificial NDE for something else?

Originally posted by Palynka
Really? Can you say more about this?

People who have been put in the air force and NASA's simulation of high g-forces have quite consistently reported having visions and the same kind of experiences that someone having a "Near death experience" have.

Yes, very high g-forces can kill you, but these are controlled environments where they can monitor people's actual life signs and they aren't actually facing imminent death.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'm just feeling my way really.

What interests me of course is the link between mind (and there I think you are right about parapsychology) and matter. Co-extensive or separate?

I think co-extensive. Another thing though: what's the difference between mind and soul? Is a mind a soul that is thinking or is a mind a body that is thinking, or something else?

Originally posted by Palynka
I know you are, but I'm trying to get you back on track. 🙂

Pantheism doesn't really require the paranormal and that's what makes it a good challenge for this topic. The equivalence of God with nature is a much harder concept to break and this makes it a good test for one's ideas.

I don't think the concept of 'soul' requires the paranormal either. A 'vehicle of consciousness' ... The Egyptians posited seven souls per body.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
That was implicit in your earlier post. My question is -- and then? Can we use the artificial NDE for something else?

Yes. To understand death.

If we know what the mind does when it believes it is dying then we can understand more about how the mind affects the body and how the mind reads the state of the body.

I.e. how is the mind convinced that it is going to die when it isn't? What is that trigger?

It is possible that people can die because the brain shuts down and thinks that it is dying when doctors have the potential to bring them back to life. In these cases if you can delay or halt that trigger then it could save lives.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
People who have been put in the air force and NASA's simulation of high g-forces have quite consistently reported having visions and the same kind of experiences that someone having a "Near death experience" have.

Presumably not fraudulent experiences. Autosuggestion?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I don't think the concept of 'soul' requires the paranormal either. A 'vehicle of consciousness' ... The Egyptians posited seven souls per body.

But then what distinguishes the concept of the soul from simply the brain?

Obviously, life is one difference. A dead brain is still a brain. Are there any more?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Presumably not fraudulent experiences. Autosuggestion?

Yes. For example, tunnel vision preceding or immediately following a loss of conscious can be interpreted as a NDE. Tunnel vision and brown-outs are well-known phenomena in aviation.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Why do genes replicate but rocks don't?

I'm open to the possibility that computer programs have soul...

Specific patterns of information can replicate including genes, some computer programs, some robots, a fairly large class of chemicals etc. Why is such behavior so special that you even consider the possibility that there is some field surrounding it that has special properties?

It just looks too much like 'God of the gaps' to me. You see something interesting you don't understand and start to hypothesize some supernatural being behind it.

Now tell me, why do rocks fall but genes don't?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Specific patterns of information can replicate including genes, some computer programs, some robots, a fairly large class of chemicals etc. Why is such behavior so special that you even consider the possibility that there is some field surrounding it that has special properties?

It just looks too much like 'God of the gaps' to me. You see something int ...[text shortened]... esize some supernatural being behind it.

Now tell me, why do rocks fall but genes don't?

Why can they replicate? Why does information exist? What holds it together?

Properties are properties ... They're there or not, nothing 'special' about them.

I'm hypothesising supernatural beings? Nope. Your projector is working overtime.

Genes are not subject to gravity? News to me ... Tell more.

Originally posted by Quirine
Well I should have said: "there are numerous people that know parts of their former live(s)"

And surely there are ways to verify whether what they claim to know did happen and could not have been known to them by any other means. Of course one must be careful as magicians have shown that it is relatively easy to fool someone on such matters.

Originally posted by Palynka
But then what distinguishes the concept of the soul from simply the brain?

Obviously, life is one difference. A dead brain is still a brain. Are there any more?

Never mind the soul, why do we talk about the mind and not just the brain?