Debate!!

Originally posted by josephw
You mean you don't know? I'm not trying to be evasive. It's just that we have to consider the context from which "born again" is used.


John 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do thes ...[text shortened]... ed is a whole different story.

I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about.

ok, firstly, from the text that you sited, how do you draw the conclusion that to be born again 'happens when you believe', i have read it several times, and cannot see it. furthermore i doubt that this can be the case, for elsewhere in the scriptures, it is evident that even those who are opposed to god, 'believe',

(James 2:19) . . .You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

secondly your statement would then mean that only Jews were to be born again, is this the case?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok, firstly, from the text that you sited, how do you draw the conclusion that to be born again 'happens when you believe', i have read it several times, and cannot see it. furthermore i doubt that this can be the case, for elsewhere in the scriptures, it is evident that even those who are opposed to god, 'believe',

(James 2:19) . . .You believ ...[text shortened]... ondly your statement would then mean that only Jews were to be born again, is this the case?

Context, context, context!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You should have read just a little further.

It ALL has to do with what one places their trust IN. It's true, the devils believe, but tremble. There is no salvation for them.


secondly your statement would then mean that only Jews were to be born again, is this the case?

I'll try to explain. "Born again" is a term used by Jesus to describe what must/will happen to the believer when they have believed in Him. It is addressed to the Jews and Israel specifically. Not the gentiles.
Notice also from the context were Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

And also, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

So, what we have is the prophesied Messiah telling a Jew about prophesied events that concern Israel. Everything about Jesus, what He did, what He said, how He died, His resurrection, all of it, was in fulfilment of prophesy.

But not what happened after Pentecost, and more specifically after chapter 7 of Acts. About a year after the resurrection.

Originally posted by josephw
You may find this interesting. I'm not born again. I'm saved.

Do you know the difference?

For you to say that you are saved is the ultimate mockery of the term. For how can you be saved when we have an entire world filled with poverty, hunger and starvation? How can you be saved when you cling to the concept of private property in the face of these egregious injustices? As long as there is a single starving person in the world while you retain your private property, you will not be saved. As long as there is a single person living in poverty while you retain your private property, the doors of the kingdom will be barred to you. Your salvation is not is not arrived at independently from these factors. It is inextricably tied up with them.

If you do not treat the plight of every single starving person as though it were Jesus himself who was starving then you will not be saved. To hold back your private property in this circumstance is to hold it back from Jesus himself. If you will not give unreservedly to the lowest starving stranger, two continents away, then you give not to Jesus. As you do it not to the least of these, you do it not to him. Everything that you retain as your own private property and deny for the use of others is something that you hold back from Jesus and deny to him.

The cynic will say that private property is a check against your own impoverishment. The cynic will say that the ledgers must be kept balanced lest you give out more than you receive. Faith, josephw, is the ability to give without reservation, without any concern for the balance books. Faith is trusting that this unguarded act of kindness will be repaid with kindness. If you surrender this paltry bit that you call your private property and release it to the whole, you, yourself, will be made whole. You, yourself, will be made fully human and walk in the spirit of Jesus. That, josephw, is what salvation looks like.