1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    13 Feb '08 23:17
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    FWIW, here's a way to look at it:

    Within each individual there are two opposing forces.

    One is a desire for truth, love, justice, compassion, etc. This is represented by God, Jesus (aka the Son of God, the Son), the Holy Spirit, etc. The resulting actions are called righteousness.

    The other is a desire rooted in the self: pride, greed, lust, gl ...[text shortened]... from John 8:31 to put the verse in context.

    I trust you'll be able to connect the dots.
    So the Holy Spirit only "represents" these forces rather than actually being a real thing? (Is the wind blowing from the east today?)

    Sounds like you believe in the Holy Spirit only "metaphorically" and symbolically rather than a real living presence with humanity. If so that's not what Christ preached and you know it. You are piggy backing on someone whose theology and beliefs you obviously don't subscribe to.


    (BTW- The other aspect of the enemy is as a counterfeit artist. He is the proverbial con man coming up with endless fake rolex Jesus's to try and muddy the waters. The key is to try and make the fake Jesus look very similar so as to deceive. The Devil is also an Angel of light. A false light. That's what makes his lies so dangerous . Only someone with a trained eye can spot the fake rolex. )
  2. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 23:282 edits
    ]Originally posted by knightmeister[/i]
    So the Holy Spirit only "represents" these forces rather than actually being a real thing? (Is the wind blowing from the east today?)

    Sounds like you believe in the Holy Spirit only "metaphorically" and symbolically rather than a real living presence with humanity. If so that's not what Christ preached and you know it. You are piggy backing on someo makes his lies so dangerous . Only someone with a trained eye can spot the fake rolex. )
    You shouldn't read too much into it. The goal was to present certain concepts in as straight-forward and simple manner as possible.

    With the way lies are constantly spewing out of you, there's little wonder in which domain you reside. It's like a never ending stream.

    How many threads do you intend to hi-jack in order to continue your attack? At least this time you didn't bother to create a pretense for it. I'm not sure if that shows improvement or not.
  3. Joined
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    14 Feb '08 01:30
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    FWIW, here's a way to look at it:

    Within each individual there are two opposing forces.

    One is a desire for truth, love, justice, compassion, etc. This is represented by God, Jesus (aka the Son of God, the Son), the Holy Spirit, etc. The resulting actions are called righteousness.

    The other is a desire rooted in the self: pride, greed, lust, gl ...[text shortened]... from John 8:31 to put the verse in context.

    I trust you'll be able to connect the dots.
    Man! I can't believe it! I actually agree with this. Just one thing. For the saved person the "force" within is the "old man" or the "sin nature", which is in the "flesh". As a believer we have a new nature placed into us by the Holy Spirit upon conversion.
  4. Joined
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    14 Feb '08 01:33
    Originally posted by Penguin
    I'm sorry but as far as I can see, you have tried to clarify one verse by quoting another that directly contradict it!

    [b]You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.


    contrasts significantly with

    Thou was ...[text shortened]... ible, more of the way people try to answer questions about what the bible says.

    --- Penguin.
    The "day he was created" and "from the beginning" are about two different events if you will. It's not that hard to understand.
  5. chupacabra palace
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    14 Feb '08 02:01
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Someone quoted this verse in another thread:

    John 8:44
    "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    It is a cl ...[text shortened]... ?

    If lies is the 'nature' of the devil, how did he become that way? Was it a design flaw?
    it means gos not real and some old perverted guys have tricked you into thinking about something else then " is god real" and pickpocketing you when you turn to ponder.
  6. Joined
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    14 Feb '08 02:12
    Originally posted by lordyeti
    it means gos not real and some old perverted guys have tricked you into thinking about something else then " is god real" and pickpocketing you when you turn to ponder.
    I guess you think everybody is basically out looking for victims like you?

    ==============================

    " i am a chupacabra agent currently in the field looking for victims"

    - lordyeti

    ====================================
  7. Cape Town
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    14 Feb '08 09:15
    From the various responses, it appears that whenever a Christian quotes the Bible I should either:
    1. Convert to Christianity.
    2. Ignore him, because I really don't have a hope of understanding what the verse means without doing 1. first.

    The weird thing is that several posters have both claimed that I cannot understand it without converting to Christianity while simultaneously encouraging me to study and research further.

    Since nobody seems to be willing to actually give their own understanding of the verse, can I assume that nobody has thought about it and done the research? As Christians, if faced with that verse, should you also either ignore it, or do the research?
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    14 Feb '08 11:52
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    From the various responses, it appears that whenever a Christian quotes the Bible I should either:
    1. Convert to Christianity.
    2. Ignore him, because I really don't have a hope of understanding what the verse means without doing 1. first.

    The weird thing is that several posters have both claimed that I cannot understand it without converting to Chris ...[text shortened]... As Christians, if faced with that verse, should you also either ignore it, or do the research?
    You were given answers which included objective data about the meaning of the verse.

    Those objective answers held true whether you "converted" or not.
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    14 Feb '08 12:024 edits
    Furthermore, you asked for experiential answers by way of provocation. You did so by refering to Christian growth in spiritual comprehension as the use of a "coder ring".

    You didn't really want an answer. You wanted to get a cheap shot at believers.

    Your cheap shot of accusing Christians of using a coder ring was disquised as a sincere question. I think essentially you just wanted to mock believers by saying they use a coder ring.

    We'll wait and see what other clever tricks you'll employ to get your accusatory cheap shots in at believers in Christ.

    Forget about faking sincerity.
  10. Cape Town
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    14 Feb '08 12:11
    Originally posted by jaywill
    You were given answers which included objective data about the meaning of the verse.
    Those objective answers held true whether you "converted" or not.
    So when you posted this:
    Originally posted by jaywill
    You need to be opened in your heart to touch God.
    You need a willingness to be changed by God.
    You have to be HUNGRY for God and for God's righteousness not just itchy to have your curiosity tickled.
    And most of all you need to repent according to the light you see. Then MORE light will come.

    You were lying? Which is it?
  11. Cape Town
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    14 Feb '08 12:14
    Originally posted by jaywill
    You didn't really want an answer. You wanted to get a cheap shot at believers.

    Your cheap shot of accusing Christians of using a coder ring was disquised as a sincere question. I think essentially you just wanted to mock believers by saying they use a coder ring.
    Your mind reading skills are pathetic. You are not even close.
  12. Joined
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    14 Feb '08 12:33
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So when you posted this:
    Originally posted by jaywill[b]
    You need to be opened in your heart to touch God.
    You need a willingness to be changed by God.
    You have to be HUNGRY for God and for God's righteousness not just itchy to have your curiosity tickled.
    And most of all you need to repent according to the light you see. Then MORE light will come.

    You were lying? Which is it?[/b]
    Yes, I did write that. I wrote that for the many other people who may have for the first time considered how to study other things in the Bible.

    I admit that that has subjective aspects in the answer.

    But I ALSO wrote this which is objective:

    =========================================

    Children of the devil means that something of the Devil's nature has entered into man. This has happened to all the descendents of Adam.

    Christ highlights that the opposing Pharisees are of their father the devil to indicate that the Devil's nature is also in them as manifested by their desire to murder Jesus the Son of God.

    It does not mean that they alone were the devil's "offspring". Since all fallen man is such it cannot mean that. It probably means that more than others they give in completely to the most base extincts of that Satanic nature.

    Whereas many are the devil's children and listen somewhat to their God created conscience, others suppress and silence the conscience and fully go along with their Satanic nature.

    There is the good God created nature and there is also the poison of the Satanic nature both in man. The conscience is like a break system to prevent us from going along completely with the Satanic nature. These ones whom Jesus rebuked did not use the break system of their good conscience. They fully give themselves over to the Devil's nature to oppose God.

    So they earn a stiffer rebuke as being exposed as having the Devil as their father. The father Devil instigated Cain to murder Abel in the beginning of human history. Here in John 8 the Devil is instigating the opposing religionists to attack and murder the Son of God.

    I hope this helps.

    =========================================
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    14 Feb '08 13:01
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Children of the devil means that something of the Devil's nature has entered into man. This has happened to all the descendents of Adam.

    Christ highlights that the opposing Pharisees are of their father the devil to indicate that the Devil's nature is also in them as manifested by their desire to murder Jesus the Son of God.

    It does not mean that ...[text shortened]... ting the opposing religionists to attack and murder the Son of God.

    I hope this helps.[/b]
    Was this in answer to my question? Because it seems totally irrelevant to me, we are talking about the nature of the devil, not of man. I'll try re-wording my question.

    You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

    I'm interested in what this says about the devil, not man. It seems to me that it says the devil has alway been a murderer, for as long as he has existed.

    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Again, I took this to be talking about the devil. Having re-read the original post I took this from, it does not actually specify the subject. However, since that post was in response the the original question about the nature of the devil, it seems reasonable to assume that the response was describing the nature of the devil. If it was not then why post it? It would be like answering the question "why do chickens have beaks?" with the answer "bananas have skins".

    So assuming it was talking about the devil, we have the contradiction:

    The devil [was a murderer from the beginning] and the devil [was perfect in his ways from the day that he wast created, till iniquity was found in him.]

    So which is it? Do I need a secret decoder ring(tm) to figure it out? Then we can return to the question of how and why he was/became a murderer.

    --- Penguin.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Feb '08 13:031 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    You shouldn't read too much into it. The goal was to present certain concepts in as straight-forward and simple manner as possible.

    With the way lies are constantly spewing out of you, there's little wonder in which domain you reside. It's like a never ending stream.

    How many threads do you intend to hi-jack in order to continue your attack? At lea ...[text shortened]... u didn't bother to create a pretense for it. I'm not sure if that shows improvement or not.
    So does the Holy Spirit only "represent" these forces then or is it actually a real presence?

    (yet another simple basic question)
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    14 Feb '08 13:161 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    The "day he was created" and "from the beginning" are about two different events if you will. It's not that hard to understand.
    He was a murderer from the beginning, ...

    The sentence is talking about the devil so I can only assume it means since the devil came into existence. The only other possibility I suppose is the beginning of time but that does nothing to remove the contradiction since the beginning of time cannot have been after he was created.

    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created

    Again I'm assuming this passage is talking about the devil (otherwise why would you post it? see my previous post above) so again it is since the devil came into existance.

    Can you tell me what two different events you think "day he was created" and "from the beginning" are referring to?

    --- Penguin.
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