1. Cape Town
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    14 Feb '08 13:34
    Originally posted by Penguin
    The sentence is talking about the devil so I can only assume it means since the devil came into existence. The only other possibility I suppose is the beginning of time but that does nothing to remove the contradiction since the beginning of time cannot have been after he was created.
    Actually I don't need a secret decoder ring to figure that one out. Jesus was obviously addressing people for whom "the beginning" refers to genesis, ie their beginning and not the devils beginning.(egoistic?)

    It is interesting to ask however, does the Devil share responsibility for all murders? Does Cain share some responsibility or is it all the devils fault?
    Since the Devil can apparently be blamed as being the instigator of all evil acts by man (Adam and Eves sin onwards), doesn't it make sense to ask why Mr Omniscient, Omnipotent God didn't send the Devil off to hell a bit sooner and keep him from causing all this trouble.
  2. Cape Town
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    14 Feb '08 13:36
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Yes, I did write that. I wrote that for the many other people who may have for the first time considered how to study other things in the Bible.
    So why do I get a free pass? Why must other people fulfill those conditions but I don't need to?
  3. Unknown Territories
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    14 Feb '08 13:53
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Actually I don't need a secret decoder ring to figure that one out. Jesus was obviously addressing people for whom "the beginning" refers to genesis, ie their beginning and not the devils beginning.(egoistic?)

    It is interesting to ask however, does the Devil share responsibility for all murders? Does Cain share some responsibility or is it all the devils ...[text shortened]... didn't send the Devil off to hell a bit sooner and keep him from causing all this trouble.[/b]
    ... doesn't it make sense to ask why Mr Omniscient, Omnipotent God didn't send the Devil off to hell a bit sooner and keep him from causing all this trouble.
    Now you're talking.

    In the trial that has been going on since before man was created, Satan had already been tried, convicted and sentenced. He objected to the sentence, claiming that God made him the way he was and therefore Satan not responsible for his behavior.

    Satan also pointed to an apparent disconnect between a loving God and God's actions in creating Hell. The charge is along the lines of "How can a loving God send any one of His creatures to Hell?"

    To counter Satan's objections and question of God's conduct related to fairness, man was created to resolve the angelic conflict. At the close of human history, Satan will receive his just reward.
  4. Cape Town
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    14 Feb '08 14:34
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Now you're talking.

    In the trial that has been going on since before man was created, Satan had already been tried, convicted and sentenced. He objected to the sentence, claiming that God made him the way he was and therefore Satan not responsible for his behavior.

    Satan also pointed to an apparent disconnect between a loving God and God's actions i ...[text shortened]... the angelic conflict. At the close of human history, Satan will receive his just reward.
    So the question I should really be asking is "Why did God make lawyers?" 🙂
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    14 Feb '08 21:031 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    From the various responses, it appears that whenever a Christian quotes the Bible I should either:
    1. Convert to Christianity.
    2. Ignore him, because I really don't have a hope of understanding what the verse means without doing 1. first.

    The weird thing is that several posters have both claimed that I cannot understand it without converting to Chris ...[text shortened]... As Christians, if faced with that verse, should you also either ignore it, or do the research?
    I went with the 'teach a man to fish' approach and drew you road map that should be easy enough to follow. Did you re-read the verses and apply it?
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    14 Feb '08 22:13
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I went with the 'teach a man to fish' approach and drew you road map that should be easy enough to follow. Did you re-read the verses and apply it?
    On a saturday?
  7. Cape Town
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    15 Feb '08 11:071 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I went with the 'teach a man to fish' approach and drew you road map that should be easy enough to follow. Did you re-read the verses and apply it?
    OK, so you are, I think, the only poster who has attempted to answer the question without simultaneously telling me that I haven't got a hope.
    So, for you the question becomes slightly different:
    I'm I correct that whenever a Christian quotes the Bible to me, I should not take the verse at face value but must either:
    1. Accept that I do not know its meaning and ignore him.
    or
    2. Do some thorough and extensive research, possibly including reading a significant proportion of the Bible and related materials - and even then not be very sure what it means.

    And given the above, why in your opinion, do Christians quote the Bible to non-Christians knowing full well that what they are saying will not be understandable or, as is clearly most often the case, will be downright misleading.
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    15 Feb '08 12:442 edits
    =============================

    Was this in answer to my question? Because it seems totally irrelevant to me, we are talking about the nature of the devil, not of man. I'll try re-wording my question.

    ================================


    No, it was not propoerly placed among the comments.

    I think it was a general comment about the argument between Jesus and the religionists in John chapter 8 of whom He said the devil was their father.

    =====================================
    You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

    I'm interested in what this says about the devil, not man. It seems to me that it says the devil has alway been a murderer, for as long as he has existed.
    ========================================


    No, that is not what the Bible teaches. Actually the creature was not always called Satan.

    I think what I was highlighting was that this Satanic nature got infested into mankind.

    One of the first manifestations of this infestation was the murder of Abel by Cain. Sorry if this was not what you wanted to know about.

    =============================
    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Again, I took this to be talking about the devil. Having re-read the original post I took this from, it does not actually specify the subject. However, since that post was in response the the original question about the nature of the devil, it seems reasonable to assume that the response was describing the nature of the devil. If it was not then why post it? It would be like answering the question "why do chickens have beaks?" with the answer "bananas have skin
    ========================================


    Penguin, I would have to go back and follow each post as this discussion developed.

    But both the answers I gave were directly addressed to what I thought was a question about the meaning of certain portions of John chapter 8. For example what was meant by the devil being a murderer from the beginning.

    I did not go back to Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28 which I take to be about the origin of Satan. I didn't think it was necessary to do that.

    My posts highlighted that in the beginning of human history (not Pre-Adamic history) the devil as the murderer instigated Cain to murder Abel. When Jesus says that he was a murderer from the beginning I think that is what Jesus was refering to - Genesis chapter 3.

    Of course from that same time he also was a liar and no truth was in him. The serpent represents the devil. Or he was the devil according to some deep occult goings on then.

    The bottom line is the devil was the liar and the murderer from the beginning of human history. And he poisoned the human race with his nature. That is the backround to John chapter 8 in the argument between Jesus and the opposers.

    ===========================
    So assuming it was talking about the devil, we have the contradiction:

    The devil [was a murderer from the beginning] and the devil [was perfect in his ways from the day that he wast created, till iniquity was found in him.]
    ==============================


    The beginning mentioned in John 8 is the beginning in Genesis as it is a record of the birth of humanity.

    In Ezekiel the history of Satan is traced back before that time when he was created as the Day Star and perfect. He was perfect in his ways as it says until iniquity was found in him.

    This is the pre-Adamic history of Satan spoken of in the "prophetic past" by Ezekiel.

    He was not created a murder. He became a murder. He was not created a liar. He became a liar. He was not created the arch enemy of God. He became the arch enemy of God.


    =================================
    So which is it? Do I need a secret decoder ring(tm) to figure it out? Then we can return to the question of how and why he was/became a murderer.
    ===================================


    "From the day you were created" in Ezekiel and

    "from the beginning" in John 8 do not mean the same point in time.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    15 Feb '08 12:46
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    OK, so you are, I think, the only poster who has attempted to answer the question without simultaneously telling me that I haven't got a hope.
    So, for you the question becomes slightly different:
    I'm I correct that whenever a Christian quotes the Bible to me, I should not take the verse at face value but must either:
    1. Accept that I do not know its me ...[text shortened]... ill not be understandable or, as is clearly most often the case, will be downright misleading.
    Theb reason why this is done I think is that they are hoping that the Holy Spirit will be up to something and will enlighten the individual as to the meaning. It is a bit of a lottery maybe and not something I'm given to , I prefer to engage and try and answer straight questions. It could be seen as cold calling. However , if God is knocking on someone's door a piece of scripture could really speak to them very powerfully. If he is not it might well look silly and unintelligble.
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    15 Feb '08 12:53
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So why do I get a free pass? Why must other people fulfill those conditions but I don't need to?
    Where did I say any of that ?

    I said I wrote something for the benefit of certain people. That is all I said.

    If you derive benefit that's your business. If you do not, that is also your business.
  11. Cape Town
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    15 Feb '08 13:18
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Where did I say any of that ?

    I said I wrote something for the benefit of certain people. That is all I said.

    If you derive benefit that's your business. If you do not, that is also your business.
    I guess I just don't understand what you are saying any more than I can understand the Bible. Do you have decoder rings for your posts on sale?
  12. Cape Town
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    15 Feb '08 13:24
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    It is a bit of a lottery maybe ....
    And like a lottery, it is quite clear from experience that most people loose. It is a frequent occurrence in these forums and in other social situations to come across the following sort of situation:
    Christian: ...(Bible passage)....
    Non-Christian: But that doesn't make sense or means that your God is so and so.
    Christian: No that is not what it means.
    Non-Christian: So what does it mean.
    Christian: 5 more unintelligible Bible passages + invitation to prayer meeting.

    However , if God is knocking on someone's door a piece of scripture could really speak to them very powerfully. If he is not it might well look silly and unintelligble.
    But don't Christians keep telling us that God is always knocking?
    Can I take the fact that most Bible passages quoted to me seem to me to be silly and unintelligible to be an indication that God is not knocking on my door?
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    15 Feb '08 13:444 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    OK, so you are, I think, the only poster who has attempted to answer the question without simultaneously telling me that I haven't got a hope.
    So, for you the question becomes slightly different:
    I'm I correct that whenever a Christian quotes the Bible to me, I should not take the verse at face value but must either:
    1. Accept that I do not know its me ...[text shortened]... ill not be understandable or, as is clearly most often the case, will be downright misleading.
    All subjects of any complexity require the understanding of certain more fundamental concepts for the subject to be understood as a whole. The Bible is no exception. For various reasons, the Bible is also widely open to interpretation. It is what it is. So you can either chose to familiarize yourself with the fundamental concepts and interpretations or remain ignorant on the subject. I've given you a road map to one way of interpreting the verse in question and to a certain extent, the Bible as a whole. Based on some of your open questions, it seems that you either don't understand the road map or have yet to have tried to apply it to the verse in question.

    When the audience's understanding of a subject is unknown, it's not uncommon for the speaker to assume at least a basic level of understanding with it being incumbent on the audience to raise questions when there is a lack of understanding. It's been my experience that both Christians and non-Christians have widely varying degrees of understanding of the Bible. Perhaps the verses are being quoted with an assumption of a basic level of understanding.
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    15 Feb '08 13:473 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I guess I just don't understand what you are saying any more than I can understand the Bible. Do you have decoder rings for your posts on sale?
    ===================================
    John 8:44
    "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    It is a classic case of needing a decoder ring to understand.

    Does anyone know what it means?
    Does it say that the Devil was a murderer from the beginning?
    What beginning was that?
    What does murder mean when talking about the Devil?
    Who would he kill and where would they go when he killed them?

    If lies is the 'nature' of the devil, how did he become that way? Was it a design flaw?
    ========================================



    I answered some of these questions.


    Whether you know it or not you got some of your answers about John 8.

    If you don't like them you can make a decoder ring and rig it to get the answers you like.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
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    15 Feb '08 22:10
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    And like a lottery, it is quite clear from experience that most people loose. It is a frequent occurrence in these forums and in other social situations to come across the following sort of situation:
    Christian: ...(Bible passage)....
    Non-Christian: But that doesn't make sense or means that your God is so and so.
    Christian: No that is not what it means ...[text shortened]... to me to be silly and unintelligible to be an indication that God is not knocking on my door?
    Can I take the fact that most Bible passages quoted to me seem to me to be silly and unintelligible to be an indication that God is not knocking on my door?---whitey---

    You probably can. There are points in people's lives where conversion is close and others where the opportunity is further away.
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