1. Cape Town
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    13 Feb '08 11:08
    Someone quoted this verse in another thread:

    John 8:44
    "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    It is a classic case of needing a decoder ring to understand.

    Does anyone know what it means?
    Does it say that the Devil was a murderer from the beginning?
    What beginning was that?
    What does murder mean when talking about the Devil?
    Who would he kill and where would they go when he killed them?

    If lies is the 'nature' of the devil, how did he become that way? Was it a design flaw?
  2. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 11:25
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Someone quoted this verse in another thread:

    John 8:44
    "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    It is a cl ...[text shortened]... ?

    If lies is the 'nature' of the devil, how did he become that way? Was it a design flaw?
    Eze. 28:12-19
    " ...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
  3. Cape Town
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    13 Feb '08 11:36
    Originally posted by josephw
    Eze. 28:12-19
    Do you answer a riddle with a riddle or were you just trying to add to the confusion?
  4. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 12:11
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    b]
    Not at all.

    I'm up early this morning and I saw your thread. It's interesting. So I just thought I'd give a bit more definition to the nature of the being we're talking about.

    Look. I'm not trying to debate this in an argumentative way. And I'm not unfamiliar with what the Bible has to say about much of anything. PHD's are awarded to individuals for a relatively few years of work. I've been studying the Bible for a quarter of a century. I don't know it all, but I know what it says about Satan. On the service of it the Bible can be very confusing. But like any other literary work there is much that goes below the surface of the page. You're asking me to describe things about which the Bible teaches, but how can I when you obviously think the Bible is a farce. Let's be honest with each other first, and then maybe we can at least look at these things objectively.
    The truth is you doubt the veracity of the Bible. I understand that. But you can't be sure because, like you said, "Do you answer a riddle with a riddle or were you just trying to add to the confusion?" To you the Bible poses riddles and confusion. I am honestly doing my best to try to dispel the confusion with reasoned explanations of what is meant by what the Bible says.
  5. Cape Town
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    13 Feb '08 13:02
    Originally posted by josephw
    Not at all.

    I'm up early this morning and I saw your thread. It's interesting. So I just thought I'd give a bit more definition to the nature of the being we're talking about.

    Look. I'm not trying to debate this in an argumentative way. And I'm not unfamiliar with what the Bible has to say about much of anything. PHD's are awarded to individuals for a ...[text shortened]... the confusion with reasoned explanations of what is meant by what the Bible says.
    So are you saying that in addition to a decoder ring, I must not doubt the veracity of the Bible? If that is not what you are saying, then why is it relevant?
    I merely wish to know:
    1. What the verse I started with means.
    2. How Christians go about finding out what it means.
    3. Whether there is a reliable method to find that out without a secret decoder ring or 'Holy Spirit' guide.
    4. Whether Christians actually agree on the meaning of verses and when they do not, how they justify their own interpretation.

    I cannot understand the further verses you posted, so it doesn't really help me understand the first unless you give a translation.
  6. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 13:33
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So are you saying that in addition to a decoder ring, I must not doubt the veracity of the Bible? If that is not what you are saying, then why is it relevant?
    I merely wish to know:
    1. What the verse I started with means.
    2. How Christians go about finding out what it means.
    3. Whether there is a reliable method to find that out without a secret decod ...[text shortened]... you posted, so it doesn't really help me understand the first unless you give a translation.
    The Bible says that Satan is the god of this world and "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" You don't need a decoder ring to understand the verse you quoted. According to the Bible one is either a son of God or under the influence of Satan.

    As to the rest of your questions, there are many different interpretations. Only one is correct.

    It has taken me years to understand the correct meaning of any given verse. I've been wrong many times and I still don't understand much of the meaning of alot of the Bible.

    I'm sorry to inform you that to understand the spiritual applications of what the Bible teaches you will have to have the Holy Spirit indwelling. Don't make the mistake of using this to add fodder to your doubts. Explore, question, and search, but don't close your mind just because you hear something that doesn't fit. You're asking to understand something, that even if you suddenly believed the Bible to be the word of God, you would still have to work really hard to get it right.

    One of the most disparaging things about Christianity for the non-believer to understand is why Christians disagree about virtually everything in the Bible. That poses a huge obstacle for many people. There is a very simple reason, but the explanation is far from simplistic.
  7. Territories Unknown
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    13 Feb '08 13:51
    Originally posted by josephw
    Not at all.

    I'm up early this morning and I saw your thread. It's interesting. So I just thought I'd give a bit more definition to the nature of the being we're talking about.

    Look. I'm not trying to debate this in an argumentative way. And I'm not unfamiliar with what the Bible has to say about much of anything. PHD's are awarded to individuals for a ...[text shortened]... the confusion with reasoned explanations of what is meant by what the Bible says.
    Amen, brother. Amen.
  8. Cape Town
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    13 Feb '08 14:08
    Originally posted by josephw
    The Bible says that Satan is the god of this world and "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" You don't need a decoder ring to understand the verse you quoted. According to the Bible one is either a son of God or under the influence of Satan.
    You may not need a decoder ring, but then maybe you are wearing one without realizing it? I certainly do. I cant even understand your interpretation of the verse I quoted.
    1. What is a god? I thought there was only one god.
    2. What does "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" mean?
    3. What does it mean to be a son of God? Again I thought that either we all were or only Jesus was.
    You see you are using a lot of words which you apparently understand to mean far more than is meant by the standard dictionary meanings, while assuming that atheists like myself will know what those extended meanings are. I don't. Decoder ring required.

    As to the rest of your questions, there are many different interpretations. Only one is correct.
    It has taken me years to understand the correct meaning of any given verse. I've been wrong many times and I still don't understand much of the meaning of alot of the Bible.
    I'm sorry to inform you that to understand the spiritual applications of what the Bible teaches you will have to have the Holy Spirit indwelling. Don't make the mistake of using this to add fodder to your doubts. Explore, question, and search, but don't close your mind just because you hear something that doesn't fit.

    But what is the point if you have already informed me that I cannot possibly understand it?

    You're asking to understand something, that even if you suddenly believed the Bible to be the word of God, you would still have to work really hard to get it right.

    One of the most disparaging things about Christianity for the non-believer to understand is why Christians disagree about virtually everything in the Bible. That poses a huge obstacle for many people. There is a very simple reason, but the explanation is far from simplistic.


    So now that I more or less understand your position:
    Why do you and others, keep quoting verses from the Bible, as if it will either tell us something or back up your points, when:
    1. We haven't a hope of understanding what it means.
    2. Half the time even you don't know what it means.
  9. Territories Unknown
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    13 Feb '08 16:30
    I get a chuckle out of those who resort to the 'decoder ring' argument for every biblical thing they see as either contradictory, nonsense or both. Among other reasons, it is humorous owing to the decoder ring they themselves are employing in their 'consideration' of biblical subjects.

    Take Mr. Whitehead, for example. He demands that the Bible mean something to him and his generation. Is he asking too much, or is he giving too little, or both? For instance, when the Bible says "prince of the air," is it asking too much for a little help here? Does it really hurt the overall meaning that much to translate such a phrase into the common vernacular?

    The purists would tell us that the rule of thumb is to translate each phrase into the exact meaning first, the closest meaning second. But then problems crop up when there is no modern-day equivalent to the phrase considered, such as is the case here.

    Others declare we should make it real to the intended audience--- thus the amplified versions we find today. Here, the problem ends up with a 'where were we, exactly' situation when the intended audience has the audacity to change how how certain words are used.

    Myself, I'm more of a purist: put the word or phrase into its exact meaning, and then do the work of finding out what it meant at the time it was written. I feel that too much conforming to new standards takes the reader into areas unintended in the original documents, with the added insult of losing potential and actual meaningful nuances. It makes more sense to conform my thinking to His than trying to make His fit with mine (or my generation's).
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Feb '08 16:43
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Someone quoted this verse in another thread:

    John 8:44
    "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    It is a cl ...[text shortened]... ?

    If lies is the 'nature' of the devil, how did he become that way? Was it a design flaw?
    josephw is correct it speaks about under whose authority and influence
    you are under, and with that it is your natural way you grasp and understand
    all things as well as the motivation of that authority. The god of this world
    is about selfishness, death, and with that portrays those things as the natural
    order of the universe. It is natural to want revenge, to get over, to acquire
    those things you desire, to do as you will, and death is one of the heroes of
    this world, it is credited with evolving life, a right of choice, and the right
    way to behave when wronged. While God tells us to turn the other cheek, He
    has made a way for our forgiveness, death isn’t the goal, but life with God
    and righteousness and mercy are the things God desires for us.
    Kelly
  11. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 21:561 edit
    ============================
    It is a classic case of needing a decoder ring to understand.
    ==============================


    It doesn't require a "decoder ring". That sounds cynical to us serious Bible students.

    I guess maybe its meant to sound that way?

    But I'll point you in the right direction - you do the homework.

    ==========================
    Does anyone know what it means?
    =============================


    Maybe. Did you ask what it means to you.?
    That's important you know?

    ==============
    Does it say that the Devil was a murderer from the beginning?
    ===========================


    Go back to Genesis chapter 4 abuut the first murder. Maybe you'll get some enlightenment.


    ========================
    What beginning was that?
    ============================


    Again, I would refer you to the first known murder which is the murder of Abel by Cain.

    Read it with an open heart and mind. See if anything speaks to you shedding light on John chapter 8.

    ===================================
    What does murder mean when talking about the Devil?
    =====================================


    I would also consult with First John chapter 3 around verses 11 - 15.

    Remember the tips you gave me on chess, about time and study?
    Apply something like that to your desire get some insight into John chapter 8.

    =====================================
    Who would he kill and where would they go when he killed them?
    ====================================


    Get what you can. Be patient until more understanding comes.
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    13 Feb '08 22:21
    You do not need a "decoder ring" to understand the Bible.

    You need to be opened in your heart to touch God.

    You need a willingness to be changed by God.

    You have to be HUNGRY for God and for God's righteousness not just itchy to have your curiosity tickled.

    And most of all you need to repent according to the light you see. Then MORE light will come.

    God will not waste His light on people who have no intention to turn from their way of life and follow the Spirit of Jesus.
  13. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 22:581 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Someone quoted this verse in another thread:

    John 8:44
    "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    It is a cl ...[text shortened]... ?

    If lies is the 'nature' of the devil, how did he become that way? Was it a design flaw?
    FWIW, here's a way to look at it:

    Within each individual there are two opposing forces.

    One is a desire for truth, love, justice, compassion, etc. This is represented by God, Jesus (aka the Son of God, the Son), the Holy Spirit, etc. The resulting actions are called righteousness.

    The other is a desire rooted in the self: pride, greed, lust, gluttony
    etc. This is represented by Satan. The resulting actions are called sin.

    Living in the domain of the former is considered true life. God is the father of this domain.

    Living in the domain of the latter is not considered life at all, but a form of death (hence murder). Satan is the father of this domain.

    You can look at these as being inversely proportional with the goal being to eliminate the latter escaping that domain entirely, i.e. 'made free'.

    You may want to read from John 8:31 to put the verse in context.

    I trust you'll be able to connect the dots.
  14. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 23:03
    Originally posted by josephw
    Eze. 28:12-19
    " ...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in ...[text shortened]... hee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
    I'm sorry but as far as I can see, you have tried to clarify one verse by quoting another that directly contradict it!

    You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

    contrasts significantly with

    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    The devil was perfect from the day he was created and was a murderer from the beginning. Thanks for clearing that one up then.

    This is not necessarily a criticism of the bible, more of the way people try to answer questions about what the bible says.

    --- Penguin.
  15. Joined
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    13 Feb '08 23:142 edits
    Originally posted by Penguin
    I'm sorry but as far as I can see, you have tried to clarify one verse by quoting another that directly contradict it!

    [b]You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.


    contrasts significantly with

    Thou was ...[text shortened]... ible, more of the way people try to answer questions about what the bible says.

    --- Penguin.
    [/b]Children of the devil means that something of the Devil's nature has entered into man. This has happened to all the descendents of Adam.

    Christ highlights that the opposing Pharisees are of their father the devil to indicate that the Devil's nature is also in them as manifested by their desire to murder Jesus the Son of God.

    It does not mean that they alone were the devil's "offspring". Since all fallen man is such it cannot mean that. It probably means that more than others they give in completely to the most base extincts of that Satanic nature.

    Whereas many are the devil's children and listen somewhat to their God created conscience, others suppress and silence the conscience and fully go along with their Satanic nature.

    There is the good God created nature and there is also the poison of the Satanic nature both in man. The conscience is like a break system to prevent us from going along completely with the Satanic nature. These ones whom Jesus rebuked did not use the break system of their good conscience. They fully give themselves over to the Devil's nature to oppose God.

    So they earn a stiffer rebuke as being exposed as having the Devil as their father. The father Devil instigated Cain to murder Abel in the beginning of human history. Here in John 8 the Devil is instigating the opposing religionists to attack and murder the Son of God.

    I hope this helps.
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