Did God cause evil?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I didn't say that God didn't examine people's hearts before the flood.

[b][you] do not in the smallest amount know what he does

Wait - I can read the Bible. That tells me a little more than a small amount of what he does.

[you] do not know all the circumstances that made him finally do this flood.

Yes I do:
[quote]The LORD saw how ...[text shortened]... n the Bible. Your critical thinking switch is firmly in the OFF position. Shameful.[/b]

God promises not to destroy everything on the earth again, even under the same circumstances as before:

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Gen 8:20-21

If it was right of God to flood the earth and kill all those humans and animals, then why did he vow to never do it again?

Originally posted by jaywill
I see practically all judgment in the Bible by God as [b]corrective and/or instructive. [/b]

Does that include what was being said in the quote we were discussing? Because that sounded like pure revenge to me.

The one exception may be eternal judgment. While it will be instructive to the universe, those judged eternally are beyond correction. I refer to that as retribution.
So do you see that as punishment, or merely enforced segregation for the benefit of others? (like prison).

While I would not normally encourage it, think of something someone did to you, undeserved that really hurt. Do you think a God of love had no care for it ? He didn't see it ? He will not inquire the perpertrator about it some day ?
I am somewhat sceptical about what benefits any such inquiry might have. Sure the perpetrator may need correction so he doesn't repeat the crime, but are such crimes allowed in heaven? It certainly won't 'right the wrong' or in any way benefit me.

If you can see that God calls for justice for what was done to you, it should not be too big of a leap to then realize that YOU TOO are responsible for sins against others.
Except I cannot see that "God calls for justice" I don't really consider corrective action "justice". Which is why I wanted clarification on your terms.

The only Justice I agree with is compensation by the perpetrator combined with corrective action to prevent repeat offences. I don't really consider revenge to be justice, though I would to some extent accept some revenge as just. Its hard to explain. I certainly don't find revenge in any way compatible with love.

So we ALL need a Savior from our sins.
So in this case there is love, without punishment. No justice involved.

But if you really don't want the Savior, in love, God will allow you to go where He is not, and where any of His blessings are not. But you will take with you the just punishment.
And that is where we disagree totally. I cant see how any such punishment can be rightly called 'justice'. What purpose does it serve? Why will I need corrective action? To stop me being mean to the Devil?

Me? I have learned to believe the Gospel. [b] In Christ, on His cross, I was judged already. I accept the offer.[/b]
So have you been punished already, or did you find a loop hole in the legal system?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Does that include what was being said in the quote we were discussing? Because that sounded like pure revenge to me.

[b]The one exception may be eternal judgment. While it will be instructive to the universe, those judged eternally are beyond correction. I refer to that as retribution.
So do you see that as punishment, or merely enforced segre have you been punished already, or did you find a loop hole in the legal system?[/b]

Does that include what was being said in the quote we were discussing? Because that sounded like pure revenge to me.

The words I used were "corrective" and "instructive."

Ie. The destruction of Sodom - corrective and instructive.

So do you see that as punishment, or merely enforced segregation for the benefit of others? (like prison).

Both.

"But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

Since righteousness dwells there God has a kind of universal "trash can" where unrighteousness will go forever.

Except I cannot see that "God calls for justice" I don't really consider corrective action "justice". Which is why I wanted clarification on your terms.

I don't think you need any clarification.

And that is where we disagree totally. I cant see how any such punishment can be rightly called 'justice'. What purpose does it serve? Why will I need corrective action? To stop me being mean to the Devil?

Disagree.

That's good for me, that you disagree with me a little. Disagree and see how it turns out.

So have you been punished already, or did you find a loop hole in the legal system?

A door not a loophole.

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and go out and shall find pasture." (John 10:9)

Bump for jaywill and galveston.

Originally posted by jaywill
The words I used were "corrective" and "instructive."
Ie. The destruction of Sodom - corrective and instructive.

Are we talking about 'corrective' as in getting the criminals to behave better, or simply fixing a problem with the world? Similarly is the 'instructive' instructing criminal, or warning others?

Both.
Can you tell me what purpose punishment serves when applied to those who are not going to heaven? Is it corrective/instructive, or is it revenge, or something else?

I don't think you need any clarification.
Why not?

Disagree.

That's good for me, that you disagree with me a little. Disagree and see how it turns out.
Huh? Is that meant to be some sort of veiled warning? Your wasting your time.

A [b]door not a loophole.

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and go out and shall find pasture." (John 10:9) [/b]
Call it what you will, it sure seems like you have somehow evaded the so called justice that you claimed was required by God. Neither instruction not corrective action seems to have been taken nor any other action that falls under your explanation of 'justice'.
So why cant the rest of us benefit from this 'door'?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are we talking about 'corrective' as in getting the criminals to behave better, or simply fixing a problem with the world? Similarly is the 'instructive' instructing criminal, or warning others?

[b]Both.
Can you tell me what purpose punishment serves when applied to those who are not going to heaven? Is it corrective/instructive, or is it revenge, your explanation of 'justice'.
So why cant the rest of us benefit from this 'door'?[/b]

Are we talking about 'corrective' as in getting the criminals to behave better, or simply fixing a problem with the world? Similarly is the 'instructive' instructing criminal, or warning others?

My knowedge of all the ways available to an eternal God are finitely limited. This is why I asked you previously - "How are we diminished if we do not know for certainty everything ?"

My answer (given this limitation) is probably both.

1.) Some correction is unto death.

2.) Some passages lead me to view the death of the Sodomites may have not been the last chapter for all of them:

" And whoever does not receive you nor hear your words, as you go out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gamorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matt. 10:14,15)

"Wait!" I think. "I thought the people of Sodom were disciplined to death and they perished forever. How could it be more tolerable at the last judgment for them ?"

You press me for details because you want to hunt for weaknesses in the biblical "system". I do not have all the details. But I have enough teaching to obey the Gospel, preach the Gospel as commanded,

God needs to have sons of God in eternity. And the facilities opened to Him to accomplish that goal are not all known to me. What is known to me I follow in faith, assured that I am on the right track.

So the answer is both, in some cases for the producing of His sons, and secondly for the removal of threatening "germs" of rebellion for the rest of the world's sake.

Can you tell me what purpose punishment serves when applied to those who are not going to heaven? Is it corrective/instructive, or is it revenge, or something else?

Prepare to get a little more reply then you asked because this priliminary point is important and I refuse to ignore it.

The goal of God is not to simply take people to a happy place called Heaven.

The "destination" of the saved is more a Person into whose being the saved are united "organically" in a blended and mingled life union. That is we might be conformed to the image of His Son that He [Christ] might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

It is the producing of many brothers to Christ the Fistborn Son of God which will constitute the "city" New Jerusalem.

New Jeruselem is seen "descends out of heaven from My God ...." (Rev. 3:12) "

" And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)

Now concerning your main question. Basically you are asking me "What good will any correction do to those who are not saved ?"

My reply is, as it relates to the examples I gave of Sodom and Gamorrah, Amalakites, Midianites, people of Noah's day, - I don't KNOW that none of them will not be saved.

I do know that every SON that God receives He disciplines.

"And you have completely forgotten the exhosrtation which reasons with you as with sons, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline ofthe Lord, nor ffaint [ edit] when reproved by Him; For whom the Lord loves He disciplones, and He scourges every son whom He receives." It is for discipline that you endire. God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers ..." (Hebrews 12:5-8a)

I know that in eternity past God purposed to have sons:

- "even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (Eph. 1:4,5)

What I do not know is exhaustively ALL the ways in this life and in past ages, or even after the chastizement of physical death, God has at His disposal to accomplish this sonship.

I am not prevented from cooperating with Christ because of this shortage of information.

Probably the more you probe and probe for weaknesses and cracks in the "system" of my faith the more I will tend to ask the same question to you:

How are we diminished or rendered unable to cooperate with this great salvation of Christ if we do not know for certainy everything ?

Your earthly parants ( I assume ) loved and raised you. Many things in thier activities you did not comprehend at the age of 5 or 6 or 7 through even perhaps up to 22 years of age. But ( I assume ) you had a measure of love and trust to cooperate with them so a substantial degree.

I have a love and trust of my heavenly Father unto cooperation with His Son's gracious salvation. But the details of some of His dealings and disciplines over some who are to be sons of God in eternity, I do not know for certain.

Having said all of that, I will now say that there probably is the tragedy of correction which will only result in the unbeliever's perdition - being lost.

I don't think you need any clarification.
Why not?

I'm not telling why.

That's good for me, that you disagree with me a little. Disagree and see how it turns out.
Huh? Is that meant to be some sort of veiled warning? Your wasting your time.

This is an encouraging reply from you. It indicates to me that probably somewhere in you you do understand that possibility of you being wrong about Christ.

There was no threat in what I said. It sure seemed to get your attention though.

My comment reflected a concern for my time in fact. See how it turns out. That is all. I recognize that this with you will just be a matter of seeing where the truth finally lies. "No lie can live forever."

But the way you sit up and exhort me not to waste your time with threats I think was a reaction of "protesteth too much".

Seriously, disagree with me. Time will tell if there is anything to what I say. And if so how much.

I don't claim to be infallible in my explanations. I give it my best shot.

A door not a loophole.

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and go out and shall find pasture." (John 10:9)
Call it what you will, it sure seems like you have somehow evaded the so called justice that you claimed was required by God. Neither instruction not corrective action seems to have been taken nor any other action that falls under your explanation of 'justice'.

I don't think I evaded a single thing. I think you don't LIKE the replies I provide.

God is the Ultimate Governor and Righteous Arbitrator. You don't want that as an Atheist and hunt for inconsistancoes and logical problems to comfort you that there is no God.

That I don't know exhaustively all the details may be an encouragement to you. At least before man such limitation on the Christian's part makes a good show for the Atheist.

God's eternal love is not without His eternal righteousness. I don't know why it is hard for people to grasp that such an Ultimate God would have more than one attribute to His being.

So why cant the rest of us benefit from this 'door'?

You have the choice to enter or not to enter.

Do you sense anyone coercing you to NOT enter ?
Do you sense anyone coercing you TO enter ?

So as powerful and Almighty as God is, you are just going to have to accept that YOUR will and your decision is with you.

" IF ... ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and go out and shall find pasture."

The issue with you and I really is not the Midianites, the Amalakites, the Philistines, the Sodomites, still born baby, the mentally retarded person, person in the jungles of the Amazon, the aborted child, the person born 1,000 years before Christ's coming, the person punished by God with physucal death leaving some unanswered questions ... etc. etc.

Whatever their situation is, your situation and my situation are not that.
What or who is coercing you not to enter through the door of Jesus Christ ?
Some bad religious person from your past ?
Some family member who furnished obstacles to you believing ?
Some organized religion?
Science ?
Me?

Some frustration with a non -100% air tight, fool proof omniscient, totally void of further questions systematic theology ?

I don't think anything is FORCING your will not to decide to enter in through Christ the door of salvation.

Now if you just will not to because you don't want to enter into Jesus, for dread, or for fear of loss of enjoyment, you have to know the awesome power of your own free choice. Your own freedom to choose is perhaps the other most powerful matter in the universe to rival God Himself.

You wish to only enter in through the door after you PUSH everyone else through ? Well you cannot do that. But you can enter in through the door and tell others about the pasture.

Then in the same way the decision is up to them.