Did God cause evil?

Originally posted by galveston75
In what sense can it be said that Jehovah creates evil?

Certainly not in the sense of his creating wickedness or moral badness, for it is utterly impossible for him to do anything wrong. “It is impossible for God to lie.” We are assured, “Good and upright is Jehovah: therefore will he instruct sinners in the way.” Addressing him the psalmist stated:

making a claim on your own behalf or on the behalf of others is meaningless when the actions of the individual in question proves otherwise. the bible depicts god as a mad creature, probably because it was invented by an assortment of unrelated people over a period spanning thousands of years.

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of thy throne: lovingkindness and truth go before thy face.” And Moses sang of this theme: “For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. The Rock, his work is perfect;

obviously this is incorrect as it is a contradiction in the bible. if his work was perfect, it wouldn't have required destroying it and starting from scratch. he wouldn't have felt bad about creating it.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

imperfect work by an imperfect, man-made god.

for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he.”—Deut. 32:3, 4; Ps. 25:8; 89:14, AS; Heb. 6:18, NW.

carrying out some laws are an act of wickedness and justice is a matter of opinion. any "law" that is upheld can be considered justice, but not all laws can be considered ethical, ergo you can not associate "justice" with "iniquity, just and right"

Jehovah, however, can be said to create evil, because the term “evil” can be used to designate not only “moral badness or offense; wrongdoing; wickedness”, but also “anything impairing happiness or welfare or depriving of good; injury; disaster”. (Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary) In view of the foregoing scriptures showing that Jehovah is just and righteous we must conclude that the evil that he creates must be that of calamity and disaster.

or better yet, we can conclude that he is a completely mad protagonist.

Originally posted by jaywill

no it didn't.

shortly after the "flood" noah takes to the drink and falls into a drunken stupor at which point ham enters.

Of course I am thoroughly acquainted with the happenings after the flood.

Your pessimistic outlook that further and deeper remedies for man should have not been necessary is only typical a skeptic insisting ...[text shortened]... d of the flood of Noah is not meant to be the consumation of God's purpose.

you didn't say spiritual salvation. you said the ark saved noah from the evil world and i accurately projected that he was still in the evil world and even went on to suggest that he authored evil himself by cursing the entire descendants of someone he felt wronged him by seeing his naked body while he was unconscious in a drunken stupor.

and it remains that all the work biblegod did in destroying the "evil world" was senseless since the evil remained in the champion of righteousness he had picked out and as you describe, expanded into the post deluge world.

yes, i do see this as a complete failure of biblegod. but don't take that literally. what i really take it as is a failure of the editors of the bible to come up with a consistent, reasonable story.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
making a claim on your own behalf or on the behalf of others is meaningless when the actions of the individual in question proves otherwise. the bible depicts god as a mad creature, probably because it was invented by an assortment of unrelated people over a period spanning thousands of years.

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of th ...[text shortened]... ster.

or better yet, we can conclude that he is a completely mad protagonist.

You are welcome to your opinion...

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you didn't say spiritual salvation. you said the ark saved noah from the evil world and i accurately projected that he was still in the evil world and even went on to suggest that he authored evil himself by cursing the entire descendants of someone he felt wronged him by seeing his naked body while he was unconscious in a drunken stupor.

and it remai ...[text shortened]... as is a failure of the editors of the bible to come up with a consistent, reasonable story.

You need to learn to look at the bigger picture which you are failing completely to do here.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you didn't say spiritual salvation. you said the ark saved noah from the evil world and i accurately projected that he was still in the evil world and even went on to suggest that he authored evil himself by cursing the entire descendants of someone he felt wronged him by seeing his naked body while he was unconscious in a drunken stupor.

and it remai as is a failure of the editors of the bible to come up with a consistent, reasonable story.

you didn't say spiritual salvation. you said the ark saved noah from the evil world and i accurately projected that he was still in the evil world

So you misunderstand "world".

He was not in that same world of no human government. That was a world of Anarchy in the proper sense of the word. That system was terminated at the Flood and human government was established.

The age of Anarchy followed Adam's fall when man was ruled only directly by his conscience. The result of that was a total degradation and decline of human society. A new dispensation started with the release of the survivors of the Flood - a new order of human government. (Gen. 9:6)

and even went on to suggest that he authored evil himself by cursing the entire descendants of someone he felt wronged him by seeing his naked body while he was unconscious in a drunken stupor.

The meaning of the curses is another discussion. I am not surprised that your opinion what it is. Noah's curse or prophecy as it was was not related to all the descendents because it fell on Canaan skipping about three OTHER descendents of Ham.

In other words it does not say "Cursed be all the descendents of Ham". Nothing was said about "Cush and Mizraim and Put" (See Gen. 10:6)

Which fact sometimes leads me to think the writer is laying down some backround to the Canaanites latter mentioned in connection to the conquest of the good land. Anyway, according to the text, the curse is not on the "entire descendents" at least of Ham.

And the details of the Bible show that some people under such pronounced curses could be rather blessed by God in spite of them. Probably you never researched out those details.

and it remains that all the work biblegod did in destroying the "evil world" was senseless since the evil remained in the champion of righteousness he had picked out and as you describe, expanded into the post deluge world.

The "biblegod" - God, reality's God, saw that the imagination of the thoughts of their hearts was only continually evil and violence filled the earth.

That may have been an OK utopia as far as you're concerned. The judgment of the Flood was not the world's last judgment. The final judgment is at the end of the millennial kingdom just before the new heaven and the new earth. That is Revelation 20 - a great white throne.

On one hand you don't like that God judged.
On the other hand you don't like that He gives the human race more chances.

This is damned if you do and damned of you don't. God judges, you don't like it. God give another chance. you don't like it. God provides a salvation, you don't like it. God leaves an instructive example for our learning how to live, you don't like that either.

Maybe towards God the imagination of the thoughts of your heart are also only continually evil.

I guess one more petty little skeptic won't mean much. The Word of God marches on.

yes, i do see this as a complete failure of biblegod. but don't take that literally. what i really take it as is a failure of the editors of the bible to come up with a consistent, reasonable story.

"Workable" ? I can imagine what kind of "workable" story such a darkened heart as yours needs.

Originally posted by galveston75
You need to learn to look at the bigger picture which you are failing completely to do here.

all my analysis is based on the complete tapestry. i don't take out the bad parts and leave in the good.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]

you didn't say spiritual salvation. you said the ark saved noah from the evil world and i accurately projected that he was still in the evil world

So you misunderstand "world".

no, i understood it in the context in which it was written. you are now at this time elaborating things that were not inferred in your original post.

He was not in that same world of no human government. That was a world of Anarchy in the proper sense of the word. That system was terminated at the Flood and human government was established.

The age of Anarchy followed Adam's fall when man was ruled only directly by his conscience. The result of that was a total degradation and decline of human society. A new dispensation started with the release of the survivors of the Flood - a new order of human government. (Gen. 9:6)

it's irrelevant if you consider the "world" to be a different government. the facts we have are: evil in the old world and evil in the new world, and that completes biblegod's failure.

The meaning of the curses is another discussion. I am not surprised that your opinion what it is. Noah's curse or prophecy as it was was not related to all the descendents because it fell on Canaan skipping about three OTHER descendents of Ham.

In other words it does not say "Cursed be all the descendents of Ham". Nothing was said about [b]"Cush and Mizraim and Put" (See Gen. 10:6)

it's not a curse "prophecy." it's a curse, a great evil enacted by noah on a whole people. and i brought it up to show that evil was ongoing from the very end of the flood and it was championed by god's most chosen righteous.

Which fact sometimes leads me to think the writer is laying down some backround to the Canaanites latter mentioned in connection to the conquest of the good land. Anyway, according to the text, the curse is not on the "entire descendents" at least of Ham.

oh, sorry. i guess that makes it okay then. a couple people skipped over makes the evil of the curse go away in your mind.

And the details of the Bible show that some people under such pronounced curses could be rather blessed by God in spite of them. Probably you never researched out those details.

also irrelevant. all i needed to show was that evil continued to exist and biblegod wiping out the world to clean it of evil was a pointless exercise in genocide.

The "biblegod" - [b] God, reality's God, saw that the imagination of the thoughts of their hearts was only continually evil and violence filled the earth.

That may have been an OK utopia as far as you're concerned. The judgment of the Flood was not the world's last judgment. The final judgment is at the end of the millennial kingdom just before the new heaven and the new earth. That is Revelation 20 - a great white throne.

yeah, if at first you don't succeed, try again. one thing can be said about biblegod, he is persistent in the face of utter failure.

On one hand you don't like that God judged.

wrong. i don't like that biblegod misjudged.

On the other hand you don't like that He gives the human race more chances.

nothing in my critical analysis suggests this.

This is damned if you do and damned of you don't. God judges, you don't like it. God give another chance. you don't like it. God provides a salvation, you don't like it. God leaves an instructive example for our learning how to live, you don't like that either.

now that's a fine list of fallacies. got any more?

Maybe towards God the imagination of the thoughts of your heart are also only continually evil.

wow. does this even mean anything? the imagination of the thoughts of my heart? are you on meds?

[quote]
yes, i do see this as a complete failure of biblegod. but don't take that literally. what i really take it as is a failure of the editors of the bible to come up with a consistent, reasonable story.

"Workable" ? I can imagine what kind of "workable" story such a darkened heart as yours needs.[/quote]

i must say, your reasoning completely broke down at the end there. take some time to recover.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
all my analysis is based on the complete tapestry. i don't take out the bad parts and leave in the good.

It's your grasp of the bad that has got you confused.

Originally posted by galveston75
I'm looking for everyones opinions and thoughts, not just yours.

And all I asked was that you address some of them. Instead, you ignored most peoples opinions and demanded bible verses for others. You seem totally uninterested in discussing the actual question and would rather assert that it is impossible for God to cause evil and argue with anyone who shows scriptural evidence to the contrary that their Bible is either wrong or misunderstood.

Originally posted by galveston75
It's your grasp of the bad that has got you confused.

unlike christians, i don't make excuses for any evil deed no matter who or what does it. we've had "christians" here defend genocide and slavery among other things because their mad god endorses them. now that is a confused state of mind.

no, i understood it in the context in which it was written. you are now at this time elaborating things that were not inferred in your original post.

The ark saved Noah from the flood.
The flood saved Noad from that wicked world.

Nothing from your voided opinion prompts me change that.
Elaborating further on a previous post is normal.

it's irrelevant if you consider the "world" to be a different government. the facts we have are: evil in the old world and evil in the new world, and that completes biblegod's failure.

That does not matter. The revelation of the Bible is progressive. And some things occured to serve as examples for latter generations.

"Now these things [in the Old Testament] happened as wexamples to us, [ New Testament believers] that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted." (1 Cor. 10:6)

"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (v.11)

If the examples of the Old Testament are wasted on you, they were not wasted on all of the new covenant church.

It is pure ignorance that you expected Revelation 21,22 to have immediately followed the third chapter of Genesis.

it's not a curse "prophecy." it's a curse, a great evil enacted by noah on a whole people. and i brought it up to show that evil was ongoing from the very end of the flood and it was championed by god's most chosen righteous.

Both are involved - blessing, curse, and prophetic prediction.

To be a "slave of slaves" is a misfortune probably most interpreters agree. However the entire earth was cursed through Adam's fall and it was not the end of everything.

Israel, God's own chosen elect were cursed and God could still work with them.
A curse may be bad but it is not always the end of the line.

"Christ has redeemed us out of the CURSE of the law, having become a CURSE on our behalf; because it is wrotten, "Cursed is every one hanging on a tree?" " (Galatians 3:13)

On the purely negative side the whole LAW of Moses, that LAW was a "curse" from which the sinner needs to be redeemed out from under. Christ did that.

A curse is bad. The Bible shows that a curse does not have to be the end or last word concerning someone/s.

"And we know that all things word together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28)

God is able to cause all the past to work out for good unto those who love God and are called into His eternal purpose.

Ruth the Moabitess, Rehab the harlot, show that God can circumvent a curse with divine sovereignty into a great blessing instead.

oh, sorry. i guess that makes it okay then. a couple people skipped over makes the evil of the curse go away in your mind.

I am not awaiting your approval for anything.
Did you think I was ? Think again.

If there are elements of the account yet to be fully understood by me, I don't trash the whole Bible because of that. I simply place those questions I have on the "back burner" for another time of more clarity.

I definitely don't count that "another time" as any time spent with your opinion.

also irrelevant. all i needed to show was that evil continued to exist and biblegod wiping out the world to clean it of evil was a pointless exercise in genocide.

It is not irrelevant at all.

You're just mad because a wicked world of violence where people imagined evil continually wasn't allowed to continue until today without God's judging.

You're headed for the lake of fire. There you'll hate yourself forever unless you repent and believe into the real Ark - Christ.

You still have time to repent of being a rebellious sinner. You mock as the people listening to Noah mocked. You reason as they reasoned.
In hell you will only hate yourself for the gracious salvation in Christ that you mocked and scorned.

To those of you who are reading along. The New Testament definitely refers in a number of places to the flood of Noah as instructive to subsequent generations. Why should not God take time to gradually and progressively unfold His eternal purpose ?

It is very profound and many types, lessons, precursers, pointers and symbols in the history are used for instructors.

" ... in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; [entering] into which, a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water.

Which [water], as the antiype, also now saves us, [that is] baptism ... the appeal of a good conscience unto God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ ..." (See 1 Peter 3:20,21)

The Apostle is drawing a clear parallel between the act of New Testament baptism - going down into the water and coming up out of the water, and the flood of Noah.

The believing sinner is died and buried with Christ in His death to the sinful world and raised to new life in Christ's resurrection. The flood and ark of Noah were pointers to the REAL ark of the Son of God who saves us eternally.

And Peter also warns that mockers like this VoidSpirit fellow will mock the coming judgment which is to come upon the whole world:


"So that you would remember the words spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior [preached] by your apostles;

KNOWING THIS FIRST, THAT IN THE LAST OF DAYS MOCKERS WILL COME WITH MOCKING, GOING ON ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN LUSTS and saying, Where is the promise of His coming ? For since the fathers fell asleep [read died] , all things continue in this way from the beginning of creation."

In other words these mockers deny that any world wide flood ever happened.
(world wide may or may not mean planet wide).

"For this escapes them by their own choosing that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth was compacted out of water and through water, Theough which the world then, being flooded with water perished.

But the heavens and the earth now, by the same word, have been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:3-7)

I don't like to end this passage on a negative note. So I add what Peter immediately goes on to write:

"But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance." (vs.8,9)

God's long suffering this poster counts as God's failure.
God's wanting ALL to have time for repentance, this poster counts as God's failure. The God of eternal ages enacts His will over thousands of years, and this poster sees "failure".

God's longsuffering is meant to lead us to repentance. This poster is exploiting the time mercifully allotted to him, for making accusation against God for being a failure. This is very wicked and void of wisdom.

See below here how he mocks God's loving desire to teach and instruct further generations.

yeah, if at first you don't succeed, try again. one thing can be said about biblegod, he is persistent in the face of utter failure.

...
i must say, your reasoning completely broke down at the end there. take some time to recover.

There is nothing to recover from. Any more "workable" story that suits the likes of you has to be a nightmare. I suppose that you would have lived happily ever after in a world of violence and evil imagination, which you castigate God for terminating.

The main failure of VoidSpirit's logic is that a progressive and gradual unfolding of His eternal redemption in Christ is not allowed.

The covering of Adam with skins points to Christ as the sinners covering.
That is not a failure to take care of the root of man's sin.

The banishing of Cain for the murder of Abel teaches something of the sinner as a wanderer and fugitive from his fellow man. That was an instruction and not a failure of God.

The calling of man on the Lord at the time of Enosh, the rapture of Enoch is instructive. They were progressions and not failures of God to finally solve the world's problem. Nor is the flood of Noah and a shaky new beginning a failure to God.

And it doesn't end with Genesis 9. Many other instructive stories help to gradually unfold the profound salvation for eternity in Christ. And many righteous men and women were leading up to the Perfect Son of God.

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham were all heroes of faith in this progressive unfolding of the Word becoming flesh.

The end of the world at the flood and Tower of Babel signal God showing that he could not get through with the created race. He therefore begins another race which we may call the called race, the race headed by Abraham. God desires to reach again the created race throough His work with the called race. He cannot be stopped.

Though there were many obstacles to the divine will, like a branching over the walls He continues until at the end of history He accomplishes His will in full.

He can be delayed, He can have obstacles of man and Satan placed temporarily in His way. But He is faithful and will accomplish all of His will.

That reference to branching over the wall relates to the blessing of Jacob concerning his son Joseph. Joseph saw God turn total misfortune into the fulfillment of his God inspired dreams -

" Joseph is a fruitful bough, His branches run over the wall. The archers bitterly attacked him ... but his bow remained firm, and the arms of his hands were agile, by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob ... etc" (See Genesis 49:24)

The wall stands for obstacles. And through God's wisdom Joseph's branches ran over every wall, ie. over every kind of obstacle. The arrows of his enemies also could not stop him.

This is a symbol of Christ too. God in Christ branches over every obstacle and cannot be stopped. Troubled perhaps and delayed. But Christ breaks through every barrier and rises even from the dead.

Christ cannot fail. And Christ is God become a man to be the Savior of the world and the cornerstone of the eternal New Jerusalem.

Don't buy into VoidSpirit's failed God unbelief.

Originally posted by jaywill
The main failure of VoidSpirit's logic is that a progressive and gradual unfolding of His eternal redemption in Christ is not allowed.

The covering of Adam with skins points to Christ as the sinners covering.
That is not a failure to take care of the root of man's sin.

The banishing of Cain for the murder of Abel teaches something of the sinner as he eternal [b]New Jerusalem.

Don't buy into VoidSpirit's failed God unbelief.[/b]

The main failure of VoidSpirit's logic is that a progressive and gradual unfolding of His eternal redemption in Christ is not allowed.


...

This is a symbol of Christ too. God in Christ branches over every obstacle and cannot be stopped. Troubled perhaps and delayed. But Christ breaks through every barrier and rises even from the dead.

Christ cannot fail. And Christ is God become a man to be the Savior of the world and the cornerstone of the eternal [b]New Jerusalem.

...[/b]

end quote.

The logic of the above premises leads to the conclusion that Christ will succeed with VS in a way that is not progressive and gradual. That is, if one accepts the premises.

Originally posted by JS357
[b]The main failure of VoidSpirit's logic is that a progressive and gradual unfolding of His eternal redemption in Christ is not allowed.


...

This is a symbol of Christ too. God in Christ branches over every obstacle and cannot be stopped. Troubled perhaps and delayed. But Christ breaks through every barrier and rises even from the dead.

Christ c ...[text shortened]... eed with VS in a way that is not progressive and gradual. That is, if one accepts the premises.

The logic of the above premises leads to the conclusion that Christ will succeed with VS in a way that is not progressive and gradual. That is, if one accepts the premises.

[/b]


The problem is also is what we mean by "success".

God created the universe and man for a particular purpose. Man fell into sin and is sorely guilty before God. Now God may save man or judge man. From our point of view that may be all the sucess that is needed.

But what about His original purpose ?

Christ not only succeed in establishing what is remedial. Christ succeeds in bringing man back to the original eternal purpose of God even had sin not become an issue at all.

I would suggest that one look at Revelation 21 and 22 and deem that as success in the fullest sense from both the human and divine point of view.

The writers of the Old Testament did not know of this eternal purpose of the New Jerusalem. They did know that they needed a salvation from being alienated from God.

But the Apostle Paul tells us that the Old Testament writers had this plan of God hidden from generations -

" That by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have written previously in brief, by which in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit ... " (Eph. 3:3-5)

Something of a mystery was not known fully by whoever wrote Genesis (Moses, I believe). Moses was faithful to write about, for example, the flood, the ark, and the spread of new people from Noah, etc. But there was a mystery still of God's eternal purpose hidden from generations.

Paul again speaks of the hidden mystery now revealed in the New Testament -

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages.

But has NOW been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the gentiles for the obedience of faith." (Rom. 16:25-26)

In the flood God did save some human beings. But God at that time did not yet dispense Himself into man for the mingling of God and man to produce sons of God, brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son, for the building up of "New Jerusalem" as the "city" of the ultimate union of God and man.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
biblegod

Ceiling Cat