Originally posted by SuzianneI don't think genocide can be morally justified and I don't think you are able to morally justify the genocide we are discussing ~ I also believe it affects the moral compass of you and your fellow believers. That might be described as an "agenda" perhaps?
If you have some manifesto you're pushing, let's hear it.
Originally posted by SuzianneI don't need you to believe, as I do, that genocide is morally wrong but I am interested in helping you to see that you have not been able to demonstrate that the genocide that you approve of [in the case we are discussing] is morally right.
And I've done that. If you don't agree, that's fine. Let it go. I'm not going to suddenly adhere to whatever YOU believe, so stop trying.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe term Genocide, as defined by the United Nations, refers to acts of man that can be persecuted and punished.
You didn't claim it was "genocide". But you did claim and continue to claim, that God ordered his people to commit genocide and they did. The fact that you don't like to use the word "genocide" to describe these actions is irrelevant. What you describe is genocide by the definition of the word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Acts of God are above this kind of reproach.
You don't buy into this solely by virtue of the fact that you do not believe in God. Well, that's great, but it renders the conversation moot, and meaningless and a point of opinion.
God is not capable of "genocide", only justice. "Genocide" is an act of man, not of God. And, before you get on your Webster's high-horse, this also means that whatever God commands cannot be called "genocide" either. "Genocide", as an act of man, is a sin. God cannot command anyone to sin. It just ain't happening. But you don't believe in God, so it's not possible for you to believe this, either.
Just remember, it's not MY fault that you do not believe in God.
Originally posted by FMFWell, the root of the matter here is that I do not believe that it IS "genocide".
I don't need you to believe, as I do, that genocide is morally wrong but I am interested in helping you to see that you have not been able to demonstrate that the genocide that you approve of [in the case we are discussing] is morally right.
Genocide is an act of man, and is a sin. God cannot sin, nor command man to sin.
Do you believe in God? You've managed to continue in this forum claiming not to be an atheist and yet I see no evidence that you believe in God at all. And yes, of course I mean the God of Abraham, the God of the Bible. If you do believe in this God, you cannot believe that He is capable of sin, either. If you do believe that God sins, then you do not believe in MY God. And yes, that MAKES you an atheist.
Originally posted by SuzianneI am not a religionist, if that's what you're getting at. But I've never made any secret of the fact.
Do you believe in God? You've managed to continue in this forum claiming not to be an atheist and yet I see no evidence that you believe in God at all.
Originally posted by FMFLet's be clear here, there is nothing wrong with my morals, and I will not allow you to paint me with this "immoral" brush of yours. Such can only be your opinion, and thus is as important as dust in the wind. You're not able to "judge" me, OR my fellow believers. You apparently do not have anything to compare to my beliefs in any truly meaningful way. So your "judgement" is merely opinion. And that's not exactly going to make me lose any sleep at night.
I don't think genocide can be morally justified and I don't think you are able to morally justify the genocide we are discussing ~ I also believe it affects the moral compass of you and your fellow believers. That might be described as an "agenda" perhaps?
Originally posted by SuzianneI have no reason to believe in the whole concept of "sin" and as far as I am aware, your concept of "sin" is a product of the human imagination. An atheist is someone who either denies the existence of god or someone who has no belief in the existence of a deity. So I am not an atheist then. Me not believing in your God figure makes me a non-Christian not an atheist.
If you do believe that God sins, then you do not believe in MY God. And yes, that MAKES you an atheist.
-Removed-Depends on the time and place. The Canaanites were a direct danger to God's chosen people. Over time, many of the Hebrews adopted some of the beliefs of the Canaanites and this turned the Hebrews away from God. And yes, that is a sin in the eyes of God. As He said many times in the Bible, committing a sin is one thing, but causing others to sin is much, much worse.
Originally posted by SuzianneYour stance on the genocide being discussed cannot help but have an impact on your credibility on matters of morality just as sonship's citing of "eternal torture" for thoughtcrimes as supposedly being "perfect justice" hamstrings him as a commentator on morality.
Let's be clear here, there is nothing wrong with my morals, and I will not allow you to paint me with this "immoral" brush of yours.
Originally posted by FMFYou can believe in God and still be a non-Christian. Ask the Jews.
I have no reason to believe in the whole concept of "sin" and as far as I am aware, your concept of "sin" is a product of the human imagination. An atheist is someone who either denies the existence of god or someone who has no belief in the existence of a deity. So I am not an atheist then. Me not believing in your God figure makes me a non-Christian not an atheist.
And yes, not believing in God makes you an atheist.
And it's not "my" concept of sin. It is God's. And you claim you don't believe in that either. So far all I have heard you say just now is that you are an atheist.
Originally posted by SuzianneNeither your opinion nor mine is of much consequence in the bigger scheme of things, on that we can agree I think. But if either of us ~ or anyone ~ states, claims or suggests things in a public arena like this forum, the inevitable outcome is going to be discussion and evaluation ~ judgements, in other words.
Such can only be your opinion, and thus is as important as dust in the wind. You're not able to "judge" me, OR my fellow believers
Originally posted by FMFNo, I disagree.
Your stance on the genocide being discussed cannot help but have an impact on your credibility on matters of morality just as sonship's citing of "eternal torture" for thoughtcrimes as supposedly being "perfect justice" hamstrings him as a commentator on morality.
And I guess I have to remind you again. I'm not discussing "genocide". Genocide is an act of man.
Originally posted by SuzianneI am a non-Christian, Suzianne, and not an atheist.
You can believe in God and still be a non-Christian. Ask the Jews.
And yes, not believing in God makes you an atheist.
And it's not "my" concept of sin. It is God's. And you claim you don't believe in that either. So far all I have heard you say just now is that you are an atheist.