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-Removed-I have explained this over and over and over again to you.
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I don't think you have explained this "over and over and over" to me.
So i don't accept your statement about repetitious explaining for the first thing.
This is the first time ever i have recalled you using to me the term office.
And what you usually do is ask over and over and over if someone has to believe my trinity doctrine to be saved. That's what you give me "over and over and over" to my recollection.
Now, I'll take a moment to see what you have that is not talking to me about hell or pagan Greek belief, which is what I usually remember from your exchanges.
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-Removed-To me, sonship, you have "over and over and over" quoted a passage from the Old Testament called the shema prayer. And you have to me, sonship, over and over asked about the belief in the Trinity and the security of being a Christian.
The items of your repetitions to me, sonship, are handily remembered.
Originally posted by sonshipIt seems that in all the scriptures that Jesus speaks of his father, he's always referring to his Father as greater then himself and that he does the will of his Father not his own, that he was sent by his Father and then of course his Father is the one who resurrected Jesus from death. Jesus could not do this on his own. Revelation show Jesus sitting at his Fathers right hand on a separate throne in a position of being in a sub position to his Father. Many other scriptures say the same thing about the two of them.
I have a question for you.
First a little backround. Now you really seem not to want to explain how the Father and the Son are the Divine "We" in John 14. And you don't seem to want to explain the plural pronoun "Us" in John 17.
Have you considered also that Jesus strongly indicated that He and the Father were "two" as well as one?
First we see t ...[text shortened]... that the Father and the Son are [b]"one" and the Father and the Son are also "two" ?[/b]
So could it be that when Jesus said that he and his Father are one, could it simply mean that they are of the same thought on all that Jesus came to earth to do? Could it not simply mean he is in full agreement with his Father and came to do that, even knowing it would eventually mean his death? Jesus is refereed to as a "mediator or ambassador" between humans and his Father. That would pretty much be expected from ambassadors here on earth also when representing their king or president to be in agreement and of one mind with their leader too. If they couldn't do that then they could not hold that position of trust.
Does that make sense?
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Are you saying you don't understand the difference between an office and a person?
This will not do to encompass all that Christ said honestly.
You are saying that the "office" of the Son testified and simultaneously the "office" of the Father testified. And this is what the testimony of two means.
But Jesus did not say two offices. He said "two men."
He did not say a man with two titles.
He did not say a man with two functions.
" And in your law also it has been written that the testimony of two men is true:"
The law of Moses there did not mean the same man in his office as a priest and in his office as husband, let us say. But two people, two persons, two witnesses regardless of the office/s they hold.
Jesus was referring to Deuteronomy 19:15.
"One witness only shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin which he has committed; at the word of two witnesses or at the word of three witnesses shall a matter be established." (Deut. 19:15)
Two witnesses here is not one witness with two or more offices.
Christ used this law as backround to teach that He as one witnesses testified of Himself and the Father as a second witness testified on His behalf.
"I am One who testifies concerning Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies concerning Me." (John 7:18) [/]
Clearly the [b]"two" is used to mean the living Father and the living Son Who was sent by the Father.
But there is only one God. And to know the Son one must know the Father and vica versa.
"They said then to Him, Where is Your Father? Jesus answered, You know neither Me nor My Father, if you knew Me, you would know My Father also." (v.19)
In a company there is often one "person" holding the office of Chairman of the board and the office of Chief executive officer. Two offices, one person. It really isn't a difficult concept.
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Does the reference in Deuteronomy 19:15 suggest a person in two offices or two individuals ?
If Deuteronomy 19:15 meant one person with two offices it would have clearly said something like
"two witnesses - a man who is both a priest and a soldier." OR
"two witnesses - a man who is both a Levite and a carpenter." OR
"two witnesses - a man who is both a husband and a musician."
The mysterious truth of TWO _________s is seen further a few verses latter where Jesus says He speaks the words of Him who sent Him.
"I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world.
They did not understand that He was speaking to them of the Father." (vs. 26,27)
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-Removed-Same answer as my previous post. Just change the scripture and you have the same point that Jesus was making:
It seems that in all the scriptures that Jesus speaks of his father, he's always referring to his Father as greater then himself and that he does the will of his Father not his own, that he was sent by his Father and then of course his Father is the one who resurrected Jesus from death. Jesus could not do this on his own. Revelation show Jesus sitting at his Fathers right hand on a separate throne in a position of being in a sub position to his Father. Many other scriptures say the same thing about the two of them.
So could it be that when Jesus said: ((((( If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" ))))) could it simply mean that they are of the same thought on all that Jesus came to earth to do? Could it not simply mean he is in full agreement with his Father and came to do that, even knowing it would eventually mean his death? Jesus is refereed to as a "mediator or ambassador" between humans and his Father. That would pretty much be expected from ambassadors here on earth also when representing their king or president to be in agreement and of one mind with their leader too. If they couldn't do that then they could not hold that position of trust.
Does that make sense?
Also the bible cleary says that "no one may see God and live" so that pretty much cancels out that Jesus is God.
