1. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    08 Jul '08 21:09
    If Jesus's body were physically duplicated in every particular, would the mind, and possibly spirit, attached to the body of the duplicate Jesus be divine also?
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    09 Jul '08 11:17
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    If Jesus's body were physically duplicated in every particular, would the mind, and possibly spirit, attached to the body of the duplicate Jesus be divine also?
    no, it would be a different person. with the same memories but independent.

    if i were to clone myself and then copy all my memories into my clone but not kill myself, there would be two versions of me, with the same memories. but if my clone goes to live in america and i remain here, after a year we would be two different persons, like twins for example.
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    09 Jul '08 11:28
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    no, it would be a different person. with the same memories but independent.

    if i were to clone myself and then copy all my memories into my clone but not kill myself, there would be two versions of me, with the same memories. but if my clone goes to live in america and i remain here, after a year we would be two different persons, like twins for example.
    actually twins who are seperated usually are still very, very similiar. i read an article once where identical twins were seperated and they married a woman w/ almost the same name and named their children almost the same names n one day they met eachother. i have no idea where i read this, i just picked it up one day so i cant give a credible source, sorry.
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    09 Jul '08 11:42
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    no, it would be a different person. with the same memories but independent.

    if i were to clone myself and then copy all my memories into my clone but not kill myself, there would be two versions of me, with the same memories. but if my clone goes to live in america and i remain here, after a year we would be two different persons, like twins for example.
    You didn't understand the question. The question is not whether the two would be separate entities but whether both would be divine.
    If we cloned you, would your clone be your mothers son?
  5. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    09 Jul '08 12:03
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You didn't understand the question. The question is not whether the two would be separate entities but whether both would be divine.
    If we cloned you, would your clone be your mothers son?
    Yes. Would the Holy Trinity become a Holy Quarternity, were Jesus to be bodily duplicated?

    Bodies, and more specifically brains, underlie minds. Jesus's duplicate would presumably have a near identical mind to the original Jesus. It would have similar thoughts, feelings, dispositions, etc. It would act and speak like the original Jesus. This is a neurobiological certainty.

    But would it be divine? If the duplicate is not divine, in virtue of what would it not be divine?

    Suppose you kept duplicating Jesus. Would you send up with a Holy Set of variable size N?
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    09 Jul '08 12:40
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    actually twins who are seperated usually are still very, very similiar. i read an article once where identical twins were seperated and they married a woman w/ almost the same name and named their children almost the same names n one day they met eachother. i have no idea where i read this, i just picked it up one day so i cant give a credible source, sorry.
    coincidence. perhaps even a tabloid fabricated story. if you ignore paranormal bonds between twins(and i think we should, they only have the same genetic material they don't have a collective mind) there would be no logical explanation as to two persons with different backgrounds behaving very similar. if they had the same backgrounds that would be another issue. if you were raised and encouraged to think like your twin(parents dressed the twins exactly the same and encouraged or forced common activities) then odds are you will make the same choices
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    09 Jul '08 12:441 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You didn't understand the question. The question is not whether the two would be separate entities but whether both would be divine.
    If we cloned you, would your clone be your mothers son?
    you didn't understand my answer. if the two jesus clones are separate entitites then of course only one is jesus, the other simply has different memories. and while holding the original jesus's lifeline as a system of reference the second jesus , since he is a sentient independent being, will be confronted with different choices and after several years he might develop into an army general.

    EDIT: oh yeah, my clone would be genetically my mother's son. but after the cloning process i might want pizza and he would want cake. the second we make different choices we become different persons.
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    09 Jul '08 14:08
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    you didn't understand my answer.
    I think I do. And it doesn't answer the question.
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    09 Jul '08 14:581 edit
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    If Jesus's body were physically duplicated in every particular, would the mind, and possibly spirit, attached to the body of the duplicate Jesus be divine also?
    This is not necessary and would not be successful. However, I commend you for realizing that it is on God's heart to duplicate Jesus.

    That is why we are taught to receive Christ. Why? So we can go to a happy place called heaven forever?

    We are called to believe and receive Jesus so that God may duplicate Jesus.

    I said, we are called to believe and receive Jesus that God may duplicate Jesus. I don't mean duplicate another Redeemer who would again go to the cross. I mean what Chrsit and His apostles taught. Apostle Paul wrote:

    " ... those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son ... "

    Those are not just idle words now. Did you read that???

    " ... those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be CONFORMED (my emphasis) to the image of His Son, THAT He (the Son) might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

    And those whom He predestinated, these, He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those who He justified, these He also glorified." (Rom. 8:29,30)



    Foreknowledge, predestination, conformation, calling, justification are for the glorification. And glorfication is to produce many brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

    This has been neglected by Christianity for centries. The sinner is saved that the sinner may be conformed to the image of Christ that God may have many sons in the same image as Christ His Firstborn Son.


    Thus the Bible is about the duplication of the Son of God in millions of redeemed and conformed people transformed by His life to be sons of God.

    We are not to look to cloning. We are to look to being saved by Jesus for the eternal purpose of God.

    Here again the same truth:

    "He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were BEGOTTEN not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:11-13)


    We need to RECEIVE the Son of God Jesus in order to fulfull the Creator God's eternal plan to mass produce His Son in many many people. God is building a corporate expression of Himself mingled with humanity.

    God is erecting an aggregate and collective mingling and union of the Divine with the Human - a incorporation of the Triune God with the redeemed man.

    Those who see something about the need to duplicate Jesus Christ at least are seeing a little more clearly into the meaning of life.

    For this we were born. For this the universe exists. That is that God may have a corporate expression of the union, blending, mingling, and interweaving of His eternal Divine Being and the created man.

    "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26)
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    09 Jul '08 15:52
    Christ's desire and teaching that He would be duplicated:

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)


    The divine life was concealed within the shell of the humanity of the man Jesus. He did not want to "[abide] alone". He did not want to remain the only Son of God.

    His death cracked open the concealing shell of His humanity and released the divine uncreated life of His Father into those redeemed by Him. The one grain became many grains.

    There is only one Redeemer. But the one Redeemer redeemed and produced many sons of God through His death on the cross and His resurrection.

    He would not abide alone. He would die to produce many grains.

    God's remedial plan is to forgive sinners who fell into sin. But before there was a question of sin He had an eternal plan to produce many sons of God.

    Right here we see this:

    " Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)

    "[B]fore the foundation of the world" means before the creation of the universe.

    Before God created a universe He has a good pleasure and a plan. That plan, that good pleasure was to produce many sons with His life and nature.

    The realm and the sphere within which God carries out His eternal plan is in Christ. God produces sons with His divine life and His divine nature in the realm and sphere of Christ.

    "[B]efore the foundation of the world" strongly implies that FIRST God had a purpose and a plan. Then based upon this plan He created the universe. Based upon His plan He laid the foundation of the the world.

    Therefore the universe exists for God's purpose to produce sons of God. Now you know why there is a creation. Don't ask me exactly how He created all things. We don't know. We can know that God first had a purpose, then based upon that purpose He created the creation.

    Here is another passage which argues for this interpretation of the Bible. The angelic beings are recording making this praise in Revelation chapter 4:

    " You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were and were created." (Revelation 4:11)

    This passage says that all things were created for God's will. The original language does not mean simply that they were created by His will power. It means that they were created because of His plan, His will, His intention, His eternal purpose and desire. God created all things for the purpose of His plan. And we saw that His plan was to predestinate many sons of God to come into existence.

    Now the Apostle Peter reminds us that to be saved, forgiven, and reborn spiritually is also to become a partaker of the divine nature of God:

    "Through which He [God] has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature ..." (2 Peter 1:4a)


    This is not to become simply observers of the divine nature. Neither is this to become merely spectators of the divine nature. This is not God wanting to produce merely many worshippers of the Divine Being in an objective way only.

    This is to produce human beings who participate in the divine nature. This is to produce partakers of God. This means that in some sense they become God in life and in nature, yet not in the Godhead. They become the Body portion of this corporate entity but not the Head portion of that entity.

    Partakers of the divine nature is participants in God's life and nature.
  11. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    09 Jul '08 17:01
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Christ's desire and teaching that He would be duplicated:

    [b]"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)



    The divine life was concealed within the shell of the humanity of the man Jesus. He did not want to "[abide] alone". He did ...[text shortened]...
    Partakers of the divine nature is participants in God's life and nature.[/b]
    Fine. But were are not yet all duplicates of Jesus. In addition, what becoming one with Jesus or God means is not abundantly clear; it may be metaphor for a moral transformation.

    The duplicate I am talking about is immediate and literal. We have Jesus A, divine according to Christians. Then He is biologically duplicated. So now Jesus B comes into existence. Is he (He?) also divine?
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    09 Jul '08 21:16
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    coincidence. perhaps even a tabloid fabricated story. if you ignore paranormal bonds between twins(and i think we should, they only have the same genetic material they don't have a collective mind) there would be no logical explanation as to two persons with different backgrounds behaving very similar. if they had the same backgrounds that would be another ...[text shortened]... e same and encouraged or forced common activities) then odds are you will make the same choices
    it was a psychology article and happened on more than one occasion but not ALL occasion. are you familiar w/ the whole "nature vs. nurture" debate? it is very possible that the biology of a person determines their actions more than the environmental factors, thus making it possible for identical twins to still be very similar in different environments. i happen to believe that nature determines more of a person than nurture does.
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    10 Jul '08 15:501 edit
    ==========================================
    Fine. But were are not yet all duplicates of Jesus. In addition, what becoming one with Jesus or God means is not abundantly clear; it may be metaphor for a moral transformation.
    ============================================


    The "We" would only consist of those who received Christ and were begotten of God.

    "As many as RECEIVED Him [my emphasis], to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name ... who were ... born of God." (See John 1:12,13)

    Those who reject Him and do not receive Him are not even in the areana. They have not been "begotten ... of God"

    Now those who have received Him, if they follow on to cooperate with the process of transformation, mature. The New Testament refers to them as those "who overcome".

    That is overcome what they are use to, living by the old Adamic nature, to live by the new divine nature imparted into them through the second birth. They are in the life long process of transformation through their abiding in Christ the indwelling Lord Spirit.

    "And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

    You say "Fine". Do you really mean fine? I think you don't grasp this. You emphasize the biological life as the agent of transformation. The agent of transformation is the spiritual and divine life. Cloning is useless.

    In fact the final rather than initial stage of full salvation is the transfiguration of the body. Salvation climaxes in the redemption of the body. It does not initiate with the redemption of the body.

    So you're attention to physical cells is a man made invention that cannot carry out God's purpose. For God works from the inside out not from the outside in.


    =====================================
    The duplicate I am talking about is immediate and literal.
    ==================================


    There is no immediate transformation of the soul into the image of Christ. It takes a life time. It does not happen without regeneration of the spirit in the born again experience. And it does not happen without the consent of your will or without your cooperation.

    There is no magic to make everyone like Christ.

    There is His New Testament salvation of being gradually transformed by the renewing of your mind to become like Christ.

    "And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:2)

    Renewing of the mind is not instantaneous. It requires as much time as possible to learn to live in the realm of Christ.

    To be born again is instantaneous. That only takes a second. And for God to rapture and transfigure your body also happens in the twinkling of the eye. It takes less than a second when it happens.

    But not so with the renewing of the old mind or with the transformation of the soul. It takes the Holy Spirit a long time to change your thinking and renew your mind. It takes the Holy Spirit a life time of your cooperation to transform your soul.

    This is why we need to be saved, born again, and utilize the available time that we have to be transformed. We need to redeem the time.

    ================================
    We have Jesus A, divine according to Christians. Then He is biologically duplicated. So now Jesus B comes into existence. Is he (He?) also divine?
    ===================================


    You are stressing the biological life. You need to look into the divine life. Transformation starts with the divine seed planted into the spiritual part of man's being not in the physical part of man's being.

    Did you hear what Jesus said?

    "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63)

    That LIFE there is the Greek ZOE life not the BIOS life.

    You have actually come up with a new modern version of Catholic Transubstantiation. That is the teaching that in eating the bread and wine it is actually changing into the actual physical body and blood of Jesus. You have come up with a revision of this old heresy.

    In 6:63 Christ has specifically taught that eating His flesh and drinking His blood refers to taking into your spiritual being His WORDS. The flesh profits nothing. To EAT Him is to take into your spiritual being and into your spiritual / soulical "heart" His words which are spirit and ZOE [Divine Life].

    It is the Spirit that gives life. The transformation by the Lord Spirit.

    You cannot improve upon God's methodology. You can only cooperate with it and be with those who are cooperating. If you monkey with it trying to scientifically "clone" Christians you will introduce to the world a terrible new age heresy. Is that what you want to do?
  14. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    12 Jul '08 19:56
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==========================================
    Fine. But were are not yet all duplicates of Jesus. In addition, what becoming one with Jesus or God means is not abundantly clear; it may be metaphor for a moral transformation.
    ============================================


    The "We" would only consist of those who received Christ and were begotten of ...[text shortened]... e to the world a terrible new age heresy. Is that what you want to do?[/b]
    I'm sorry I asked.
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    14 Jul '08 15:36
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    I'm sorry I asked.
    Maybe next time you can preface your question with:

    "I don't really want to know anything, but ..."
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