1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    14 Jan '11 00:48
    As most of you are aware by now ,(thnx to blacke baatle and the like), there is a concept of non-dualism floating around that seems to be largely ignored or misunderstood by most who dont already have an understanding of this INTEGRAL idea to spirituality.

    I've stated these points here and there, but would like to sum up some of the main divisions that I see as hindering furthur spiritual advancement personally and collectively.
    1. Division between man and God.
    2. Division between mand and his neighbours.
    3. Division between man and his woman.

    (I gotta go all of a suuden, I will get back to this shortly)
  2. Joined
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    14 Jan '11 01:24
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    As most of you are aware by now ,(thnx to blacke baatle and the like), there is a concept of non-dualism floating around that seems to be largely ignored or misunderstood by most who dont already have an understanding of this INTEGRAL idea to spirituality.

    I've stated these points here and there, but would like to sum up some of the main divisions th ...[text shortened]... on between man and his woman.

    (I gotta go all of a suuden, I will get back to this shortly)
    What about the division between karoly and his audience?
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    14 Jan '11 06:151 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    What about the division between karoly and his audience?
    Yes,yes...
    (Actually I'm not quite sure if your poking fun here or have have some other meaniong in mind)

    Matters not, ToO.

    As I was saying, people walk around in their lives as if they were divided from others ,(either ideas or people).

    But lets get back to no.1- the division between man and God.

    We have been taught all wrong. WE have been taught (christians) that we must fear god and hell and such.
    My main point on no.1 is that we should be taught that we are a part of the universe, that we are linked with god/universe/reality/(insert your own) .
    So right from the start of our "spiritual conquest" (a conquest of the self and nothing/no one else) is headed in the wrong direction ,ie. out instead of in.

    I know my ideas are similar to that of eastern religions but I make this/these points based on my own evaluation.

    Whats it going to take to turn this thing around?

    I have trouble with the alien theories. I heav trouble with my theories on time. And other such ideas.
    But I thought I would give this one a shot. After all, I really dont see what there is to object to unless you've been indoctrinated into believing that somehow "the devil made me do it", or some other such tripe.

    I would also be keen to hear some athiests views on this matter, as they dont believe in god, so no.1 wouldn't apply to them, but how about the others? Does it ring a bell on any level? 🙂
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    14 Jan '11 11:301 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczelidea to spirituality.
    your second point mand... well im keeping them away from me
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    14 Jan '11 11:59
    Originally posted by stoker
    your second point mand... well im keeping them away from me
    I believe Jesus taught "Love your enemies".

    of course our biggest enemies are ourselves, so it is with good humour that I suggest we continue any exploration of this subject🙂
  6. Standard memberua41
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    14 Jan '11 19:20
    All these divisions, these distinctions and definitions place up boundaries that keep us domesticated to hierarchies, conventions, ideals attitudes etc. They're habits of the mind, to evaluate things in their relative position amongst everything else. I suppose the simpler you keep things, the easier it is to see good and bad, or compassion and hatred. You can take an action, that is almost seemingly inherent "bad", but unless the entire situation is considered, all the motives taken into account, the disposition on its morality can change (I think of a man robbing a store. In general contexts, this is a bad action. But perhaps this gentleman has been a victim of said store, a place that exploits the workers of the area to line their pockets. Being trodden over and abused, he no longer has the means to support his family. This, arguably, justifies his approach. And if not, it at least shows that is not always so clear cut black and white- we live in ambiguous grey.)

    Everything is manifest in a mutual medium we call the universe. Religions say we are in god's image, or part of a universal force. Science says matter is cooled down, slow moving energy- if everything was hot and fast enough it would be indistinguishable. All expressions of a single intermingling web, branches off the same tree. To deny any part of the picture is to alter the whole painting. Setting up these divisions means we are now dealing with a different situation than what actually is. I forget how it exactly goes, something like the mind cannot observe the universe because it is a part of it- as in in our approach to bearing witness to all phenomena, biases and preconceptions should be accounted for. If you had a perfect sphere, could you tell me which is the top and which is the bottom?

    All our labor, our work, our ideals our creative expressions are all representative of the "big picture" or "god" "supreme being" whatever your particular course in life has directed you to call it. All is "right" in the sense that it's just a manifestation from our particular standpoint in life- from here I see this and that, and from there you see those and these
  7. Standard memberua41
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    16 Jan '11 16:111 edit
    Very briefly-

    In Buddhism, everything is manifest in nothing. There is no self making the separation between phenomena and witnessing. Cause and effect are intimately tied. Conditioned genesis- one giving rise to another. One of the main sutras accredited towards zen has the famous "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form." Lectures and teachings with emphasis on awareness/responsibility try to teach to non-distinction of essence and function- or how the motive matches action.

    A principle ideal in Hinduism is Brahman being manifest in all of us (Atman). It is the very distinction that we see that is delusion and keeps us out of communication with god. The schools of though involved usually have a slightly different approach to the situation. One simply says the realization of the non separateness is the way to keep out of the illusion, another emphasizes action- to experience one extreme (such as extreme sadness) to realize our polarities are weaved into one another.

    Taoism incorporates non dualism and is simply summarized through the iconic yin yang symbol. Black and white, hated and compassion, good and evil, action and non action, all supporting each other to make the whole circle. Tao te Ching is noted for smacking polarities together to show the differences as superficial ("If you do not contend with anything, what is there to contend with you?" "The usefulness of valleys is its emptiness so things may be placed in it." )

    The western abrahamic religions all have a god that is outside of definition of human mind and constraint. A deity that sits outside of physical manifestation, time and thought essentially. Similar, in a way, to some Vedic ways- the universe we experience is outside of god's realm, a fabrication from our inherent displacement from god. Jesus emphasizes becoming one again with god through him. There is speculation on some of his teachings as well recognizing the unity amongst us with emphasis on trying to get everyone to God since no one is separate from each other (joint celebrations, joint suffering, joint salvation). Some of the early, "more mystic" branches of Judaism and Islam uphold the separation from god, saying the universal distinction is of our downfall, categorized as our sin.



    I'll have to dive into this stuff some more later on. I found a saying that goes something like that dualism is just another face of non dualism. One one face, you have the nothingness, the unifying thing that there is no separation. Then you have the side of division.

    There is a monk that goes up to his teacher, "Master, master! I have found it! Nothingness! I am detached from everything!"
    The master proceeds to smack him with a stick
    "What was that for?"
    "To detach you from your detachment."
  8. Donationrwingett
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    16 Jan '11 17:02
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    As most of you are aware by now ,(thnx to blacke baatle and the like), there is a concept of non-dualism floating around that seems to be largely ignored or misunderstood by most who dont already have an understanding of this INTEGRAL idea to spirituality.

    I've stated these points here and there, but would like to sum up some of the main divisions th ...[text shortened]... on between man and his woman.

    (I gotta go all of a suuden, I will get back to this shortly)
    Of the possible divisions that exist, you've left out perhaps the greatest one of all, which is a division between man and nature, where man is seen as being separate from, and in opposition to, nature and the universe as a whole. This has led to an extractive relationship with nature, where the earth's resources are commodified and treated as mere ingredients for short term exploitation and consumption.

    Because this division, this separateness, has been deeply ingrained, mankind is able, to a large extent, to keep the damaging consequences of this relationship from impinging upon his day to day activities. We know that we are doing the earth long term and lasting damage, but that perceived separateness allows us to keep that knowledge at an arm's length. It prevents us from grasping the fact that we are doing ourselves immediate damage.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    16 Jan '11 17:08
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I would also be keen to hear some athiests views on this matter, as they dont believe in god, so no.1 wouldn't apply to them, but how about the others? Does it ring a bell on any level? 🙂
    They may not believe in God, but that does not mean that your #1 does not apply to them.

    They are still separated from God, only they choose to not deal with it at all.

    God says to them "I am here", but they stick their fingers in their ears and chant "lalalalala, I can't hear you".
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    16 Jan '11 20:351 edit
    Originally posted by ua41
    Very briefly-

    In Buddhism, everything is manifest in nothing. There is no self making the separation between phenomena and witnessing. Cause and effect are intimately tied. Conditioned genesis- one giving rise to another. One of the main sutras accredited towards zen has the famous "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form." Lectures and teachings with emphasis ck him with a stick
    "What was that for?"
    "To detach you from your detachment."
    How refreshing to awake and read this post.

    I bow.
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    16 Jan '11 20:38
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    They may not believe in God, but that does not mean that your #1 does not apply to them.

    They are still separated from God, only they choose to not deal with it at all.

    God says to them "I am here", but they stick their fingers in their ears and chant "lalalalala, I can't hear you".
    I believe you have christian tendencies, so perhaps you should comment on why the church maintains the separation between us and god until we die?
    Why cant we "be one" with god while still alive? Too scary?
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    16 Jan '11 20:40
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Of the possible divisions that exist, you've left out perhaps the greatest one of all, which is a division between man and nature, where man is seen as being separate from, and in opposition to, nature and the universe as a whole. This has led to an extractive relationship with nature, where the earth's resources are commodified and treated as mere ingredie ...[text shortened]... s length. It prevents us from grasping the fact that we are doing ourselves immediate damage.
    Well put. The athiests may deny god, but nobody can deny nature.

    I believe the film "Avatar" depicts a race in tune with nature. Although it was a poor storyline, the connection between the bluey's and their planet was neatly portrayed , I thought.
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    17 Jan '11 04:041 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I believe you have christian tendencies, so perhaps you should comment on why the church maintains the separation between us and god until we die?
    Why cant we "be one" with god while still alive? Too scary?
    =======================================
    I believe you have christian tendencies, so perhaps you should comment on why the church maintains the separation between us and god until we die?
    Why cant we "be one" with god while still alive? Too scary?
    =====================================


    It would be very abnormal to teach the Christian faith in the manner you discribe.

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor 6:17)

    That is a statement about the human spirit and the divine Holy Spirit being united to be "one spirit".

    That experience of being "one spirit" and "joined to the Lord" is on this side of physical death. It is not a teaching that one will be joined to the Lord only after she is dead.

    Nor should we think God is the God of death. That is that it is His desire that we go into the realm of the dead in order to fellowship with Him.
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    17 Jan '11 07:46
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=======================================
    I believe you have christian tendencies, so perhaps you should comment on why the church maintains the separation between us and god until we die?
    Why cant we "be one" with god while still alive? Too scary?
    =====================================


    It would be very abnormal to teach the Christ ...[text shortened]... t is His desire that we go into the realm of the dead in order to fellowship with Him.[/b]
    It is not exactly "the realm of the dead" , as you put it. (I'm pretty sure we're in agreement about what that means generally.)
    But I disagree, I have come across (individual non-church affiliated) christians that have subscribed to more or less that idea, (that you may be one with god while still alive). Also some sects subscribe to it, just as in the christian gnostic tradition.

    I have read much very inspiring christian writings, jaywill. It showed me that christianity is not limited to a "one size fits all" religon, and has many other aspects that are largely ignored by mainstream christianity.

    (Now I really hope you are not one of those christians that think the above comments are in any way blasphemous. That would be a real shame and would stunt any furthur debate on this topic 🙁 )
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    17 Jan '11 14:135 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    It is not exactly "the realm of the dead" , as you put it. (I'm pretty sure we're in agreement about what that means generally.)
    But I disagree, I have come across (individual non-church affiliated) christians that have subscribed to more or less that idea, (that you may be one with god while still alive). Also some sects subscribe to it, just as in sphemous. That would be a real shame and would stunt any furthur debate on this topic 🙁 )
    ========================================
    It is not exactly "the realm of the dead" , as you put it. (I'm pretty sure we're in agreement about what that means generally.)
    But I disagree, I have come across (individual non-church affiliated) christians that have subscribed to more or less that idea, (that you may be one with god while still alive). Also some sects subscribe to it, just as in the christian gnostic tradition.
    =========================================


    Being "joined" the Lord Jesus or being "firmly attached" to Christ is the New Testament's teaching. This is what I believe we should come back to even if it bucks tradition.

    Oneness with God, being progressively wrought in the believer upon receiving Christ, is the New Testament teaching.

    Christ living in the believer is also the New Testament proclaimation. "Christ in you the hope of glory" is a teaching of the indwelling Person, in this present life, being the hope of the outward manifestation of God's splendour.

    Paul's last written words in the New Testament are about the Lord Jesus Christ being WITH the innermost kernel of man's being:

    "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)

    You know that the last words of a person are very important. These were Paul's final reminder to his co-worker Timothy. To paraphrase "Timothy, whatever else happens and no matter what, remember, the Lord Jesus Christ IS with your spirit."

    The Lord Jesus Christ being blended with His believers is so intergral a concept of the Bible that without it the Gospel collapses. If you do not have the inward indwelling of Christ Himself you merely fall back into an Islam type of belief or maybe a Jehovah's Witness style objectivisim.

    I can hardly emphasize enough that the orthodox New Testament teaching is of a organic joining of God with man. He imparts Himself into the innermost being and He works to saturate, permeate, spread out, and eventually swallow up the believer's whole being in oneness with God.

    At the resurrection and rapture this swallowing up in the divine life is consummated for the normal overcoming victors of faith.

    "For also, we who are in this tabbernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, THAT WHAT IS MORTAL MAY BE SWOLLOWED UP BY [DIVINE] LIFE." (2 Cor. 5:4 my emphasis)

    You see, to the one who receives Christ, the divine life of the Triune God is working its way from the inside of man out. From the kernel to the outermost part He is speading this oneness with God. From the center to the circumferance He is dispensing His divine life into man.

    This is the revelation that God is recovering today. We must come back to this high peak of New Testament revelation. We must do so especially in preparation for the second coming of Christ physically.

    ==============================
    I have read much very inspiring christian writings, jaywill. It showed me that christianity is not limited to a "one size fits all" religon, and has many other aspects that are largely ignored by mainstream christianity.
    =================================


    There is no need for me to play one teacher against another. All the teachers belong to the church. I do not mean all are equally good. But we may certainly not reject anything that is good. Paul, Apollos, Peter, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, all are the property of the Christian church.

    We need not pit one against the other. We may reap the good benefits of each as they served the Lord. Christians only err in establishing various kinds of "churches" according to these various servants of God.

    But whatever is profitable I seek its benefits to reap. I do not have to play "Theological Fight Club". If you have something worthy that is not mainstream, I am open to hear it.

    ===============================
    (Now I really hope you are not one of those christians that think the above comments are in any way blasphemous. That would be a real shame and would stunt any furthur debate on this topic )
    =================================


    I did not read any blasphemy. I think my main point here is that a living and organic oneness with the Triune God is definitely the teaching of the New Testament.

    This oneness is a process that begins in regeneration. It completes in transfiguration. It begins in being born again. It consummates in resurrection and/or rapture.

    This oneness begins in receiving Christ into the human spirit - the "nucleus" of our being, the kernel. This oneness progresses in sanctification, transformation, conformation, and reaches its climax in "the redemption of the body".

    This oneness with the Triune God culminates in a collective, aggregate, and corporate entity called "The New Jerusalem". She matches Christ, marries Christ, is the Bride and Wife of Christ.

    And New Jerusalem is God becoming man and man becomming God, in life and nature but not in His sole Godhead.

    The universe was created for this purpose. That is that the Triune may indwell and mingle with His redeemed, regenerated, transformed people. Man becomes God in life, nature, and expression (but not in His sole Fatherhood as the Source or Godhead) and God becomes man.

    This was the aspiration and petition of Christ. This was His prayer that is so powerful that it must be fulfilled. It cannot fail to be fulfilled:

    "That they all may be one, even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21)

    "And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

    I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (v.22,23)


    "Father concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (v.24)

    This prayer of Jesus Christ is so powerful that its answer is seen fully fulfilled in Revelation 21 and 22. The climax of human history and of God's history consummates in a "city" which is the mingling of God and man for His expression and man's enjoyment for eternity.

    Now, remember. On the THIRD DAY .... the THIRD DAY ... Jesus was raised from the dead. And today Jesus is available as the pneumatic life giving Holy Spirit.

    He's available today. I mean today.

    [b]"
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