Do most people believe they're good?

Originally posted by josephw
Not by God's standard.

Sure, by Gods standards. Thats the only standard I follow.

Originally posted by KellyJay
When you can bring a baby forward who believes they are either good or
bad we can talk about it. Until then I believe the conversation is about
those of us who think about such things.
Kelly

In another thread you mentioned that babies DONT get to choose their parents.
How do you know this?

Originally posted by pawnhandler
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.

My personal standard, as a Christian, is Christ. Falling short of that standard as I do through my own efforts is humbling. Everyone naturally assumes that good intentions and good deeds make a person good to at least a certain degree, but the Holy Spirit quickly does away with that misconception. It is deeply painful to discover how hopelessly and helplessly depraved we are despite our best efforts. Only the Holy Spirit can convey such an experience, which inspires a keen sense of mourning at the loss of dearly held beliefs about oneself, and for oneself seen in the light as a crippled, wretched, and sad figure, totally dependent on God's mercy. It is that humbling experience which marks an encounter with the Spirit of God. Far from sending one into a fit of depression or into a downward spiral of despair and self-hatred, such knowledge actually engenders the most realistic sense of self possible. What remains is humility and faith, and the sure knowledge that nothing is a greater blessing than humility and faith. It is through our very failures that Christ teaches the secret to walking with God.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
My personal standard, as a Christian, is Christ. Falling short of that standard as I do through my own efforts is humbling. Everyone naturally assumes that good intentions and good deeds make a person good to at least a certain degree, but the Holy Spirit quickly does away with that misconception. It is deeply painful to discover how hopelessly and he ...[text shortened]... and faith. It is through our very failures that Christ teaches the secret to walking with God.

Indeed ,epi. Well put.
But how come the Christians on this site always come off sounding sad and gloomy with such subjects?
Is there not a more positive way you could put the same sentiments?
After all, us humans, who fall short of Christ-Concuisness, need all the encouragement that we can get, no?

Originally posted by LemonJello
I don't see how your view makes much sense.

I must note that knightmeister also put forward a similar claim that all good choices must be accredited to God.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I don't see how your view makes much sense. Within your free will theodicy, you have always wanted to say that God's plans of love required His granting us freedom -- as in, personal autonomy over our choices and actions. By any reasonable interpretation, God's granting us freedom in this sense should include his creating us to be genuine sources of our ed for good choices; then why think your free will holds any weight at all anyway?

For God to give us free will and not tell us how best to live our lives would be neglagent. So how does he do that? He told Adam and Eve how to live their lives, and the rejected what God told them. The same applies to us via our "inner voice". In fact, without being told how to live our lives, we have no reason to be held accountable for our "sins". Of course, what makes something a sin is simply going against the morality of our Creator. And what is that morality? That morality is grounded solidly in love. Love demands free will and wishes that we do unto others as we would want done to us. So that is the standard that we are held up with and it is up to us to agree to it. Simply put, it is the law of the land that reigns supreme. It is comparible to the man-made laws that govern us, only, we often have no internal voice warning us of when we are breaking them. For example, the tax code is so complicated that apparantly the head of the IRS was unable to comply. Is it fair to hold him to such an unreasonable standard? I say that arguably it is not, that is assuming he was telling the truth by saying he was trying to comply. You could also argue that we should not be held to any standards, but then what happens to the order of Creation? If all standards are thrown over board, chaos rears its ugly head.

As for doing the "right thing", let me provide you with an example. If someone was trapped in a burning building and you came along and saw their plight and ran into save them, what would be the reaction? The reaction would be to hold you up as a hero, however, more than likely you would recoil from that assumption and hold the attitude that any other decent person would have done the same. I have seen it time and again. People instinctively shun such praise simply because it was instinctive to act in such a way. So where did this instinct come from? I say it comes from God. Do you want to be patted on the back for doing the "right thing". How about if you travel in your car and the legal speeding limit? Do you want a pat on the back if you abide by the law? Most people would think that such praise is bizzare even though they want praise for giving to the poor. It is sad that we insist on being credited for things we should not be told to do and, at the same time, puzzled when we are punished for doing things we know we should not be doing.

Originally posted by whodey
Do you want a pat on the back if you abide by the law?

Yes I do.

It is sad that we insist on being credited for things we should not be told to do and, at the same time, puzzled when we are punished for doing things we know we should not be doing.
It seems you are saying that We should not get any credit for doing anything right as doing the right thing is the default. We should only be criticized when we do not do right.

The question remains, whether you get credit or not, are you still good, when you do the right thing? Are you better than those who don't?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
In another thread you mentioned that babies DONT get to choose their parents.
How do you know this?

Well, in this life they don't if you think there is something that suggests
they do bring it forward.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think?

Not really. The question that prompted the thread was "Do most people believe they're good?" Of course, two different persons can both believe they themselves are good and yet hold very different conceptions of what it means to be good. So, his question really doesn't depend ood that is mutually embraced. Or maybe I am not understanding your points in this post?[/b]

Okay, as you point out it isn't that they are good, only that they believe
they are. It is a different question than the one I answered.

I'd say most more than likely think they are okay, at least good enough
for themselves.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes I do.

[b]It is sad that we insist on being credited for things we should not be told to do and, at the same time, puzzled when we are punished for doing things we know we should not be doing.
It seems you are saying that We should not get any credit for doing anything right as doing the right thing is the default. We should only be criticized ...[text shortened]... t or not, are you still good, when you do the right thing? Are you better than those who don't?[/b]

Let me put in another way. Suppose you were on trial for murder and during the trial you tell the jury that you have been "good" your whole life except for this one time. In fact, you bring in character witnesses testifying to you good works throughout your life. The judge will then look at you and say but that is not why you are here. You are here to be tried for murder. Do you seriously think that all those good works will be enough to evade punishment? Should it? Should then judge then sing your praises for all those previous good works?

I'm VERY good...God says so.

Gen1: 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well, in this life they don't if you think there is something that suggests
they do bring it forward.
Kelly

My belief is that "souls" choose their parents as in hindu scripture.
The reason we cant explain our current predicament accurately,(including things like how we chose our parents,and who we are origonally,etc.), and only partially, is because of "amnesia" that we have suffered due to the current(spiritual) climate on this planet. We have been cut off from the scource,(from God), and very few have been able to fully awaken and remember their heritage as members of a spiritual Being, that being manifested as a human, who have now evolved the physical apparatus(the brain), to reconnect with the origonal matrix of its creation.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
My belief is that "souls" choose their parents as in hindu scripture.
The reason we cant explain our current predicament accurately,(including things like how we chose our parents,and who we are origonally,etc.), and only partially, is because of "amnesia" that we have suffered due to the current(spiritual) climate on this planet. We have been cut off ...[text shortened]... ed the physical apparatus(the brain), to reconnect with the origonal matrix of its creation.

Okay
Kelly

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Indeed ,epi. Well put.
But how come the Christians on this site always come off sounding sad and gloomy with such subjects?
Is there not a more positive way you could put the same sentiments?
After all, us humans, who fall short of Christ-Concuisness, need all the encouragement that we can get, no?

But how come the Christians on this site always come off sounding sad and gloomy with such subjects?

I'm not sure. Perhaps because it is a very serious subject?

Is there not a more positive way you could put the same sentiments? After all, us humans, who fall short of Christ-Concuisness, need all the encouragement that we can get, no?

I'd like to point out that 'Christ-consciousness' sounds more like a mystical experience than what I'm referring to. Neither is an encounter with the Spirit of God something that is achieved in one's own power. That said, I can offer a bit of encouragement to you: (1) anyone (that includes you, karoly aczel) can come to Christ through faith, and (2) it is the love of God which brings us to repentance; i.e., it is the love of God which empowers us to find brokenness and humility. And it is within the brokenness and humility of Christ (Christ alone, mind you) that the peace which passes all understanding, the true peace which all men desire whether they know it or not, is found.

Originally posted by duecer
I'm VERY good...God says so.

Gen1: 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature ...[text shortened]... made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.[/b]

Rec'd. Dead on.