1. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    04 Apr '10 18:00
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about yourself, the priest did a bad job of the homily.

    This makes me wonder whether, in general, people think they're "good" and if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
  2. Joined
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    04 Apr '10 20:16
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    There is a scripture which says something to the effect that we are all "good" in our own eyes, even though we admittedly have done "bad" things. So which is it?
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    04 Apr '10 21:09
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    Sure I'm good. Maybe not the best yet, but cetainly good enough to be called good.
  4. Joined
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    04 Apr '10 21:20
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060101/article_02.htm

    This is some helpful infomation on the Bibles viewpoint of why we sin....
  5. Donationbuckky
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    04 Apr '10 23:54
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... d if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    y
    The ego is constantly telling you that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. The ego is the probelm.
  6. Account suspended
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    04 Apr '10 23:57
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    you should be encouraged at a Christian meeting, not told how much a piece of worthless rubbish you are.

    (Hebrews 10:24-25) . . .And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works,  not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    05 Apr '10 00:561 edit
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think? I mean
    some may steal, lie, cheat, and think all others do too, but they are not
    like those others who are really bad, so to themselves they are good. If
    the standard is all who agree and think like me are good, that is a moving
    standard that can change as the thoughts of the day bend our thinking this
    way or that, which means good isn't really a standard that is settled, but
    a sliding scale that is never set and will never be settled due to the fact we
    are always making it up as we go.

    If good is a standard that does not change due to popular opinion or
    the mood of the day, I'd say we all will fall short due to our lack of
    consistency over time, and none of us are good.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    05 Apr '10 02:19
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think? I mean
    some may steal, lie, cheat, and think all others do too, but they are not
    like those others who are really bad, so to themselves they are good. If
    the standard is all who agree and think like me are good, that is a moving
    standard that can change as the thoughts of the day bend ...[text shortened]... ll will fall short due to our lack of
    consistency over time, and none of us are good.
    Kelly
    Not even the little babies?
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    05 Apr '10 02:29
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Sure I'm good. Maybe not the best yet, but cetainly good enough to be called good.
    Not by God's standard.
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    05 Apr '10 02:37
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.

    I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
    Only God is good.

    Jesus paid our sin debt. Once one believes and trusts, by faith, in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross, then God is justified in declaring us righteous.

    That righteousness is the righteousness of Christ. Not our own righteousness.

    So we are not really good. If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
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    05 Apr '10 03:00
    Originally posted by josephw
    Only God is good.

    Jesus paid our sin debt. Once one believes and trusts, by faith, in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross, then God is justified in declaring us righteous.

    That righteousness is the righteousness of Christ. Not our own righteousness.

    So we are not really good. If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
    I agree. I would just add to that people often get confused because we are capable of "good" deeds. However, what they fail to take into account is that we are wired to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, any good that we do is a direct result of how God created us to be. So when we go around puffing out our chest for doing a good deed as if we did something great, we are in error. Our drive to do the decent thing did not originate with us so it should not be credited to us. Conversely, when we do "evil", we are doing the opposite of what we were wired to do. That is why we have trouble living with ourselves when we go against this inner voice. We then need to rationalize our behavoir in order to live with ourselves. For example, if we kill someone we just say that it is nothing personal, its just business. Or perhaps we say they are less than human. Perhaps they are an "infidel", for example. In fact, this inner voice is not really ours, it is God talking to us.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    05 Apr '10 04:03
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Not even the little babies?
    When you can bring a baby forward who believes they are either good or
    bad we can talk about it. Until then I believe the conversation is about
    those of us who think about such things.
    Kelly
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    05 Apr '10 06:53
    Originally posted by josephw
    Only God is good.

    Jesus paid our sin debt. Once one believes and trusts, by faith, in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross, then God is justified in declaring us righteous.

    That righteousness is the righteousness of Christ. Not our own righteousness.

    So we are not really good. If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
    If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?

    No. Since when did being good imply being perfect?
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    05 Apr '10 07:142 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    I agree. I would just add to that people often get confused because we are capable of "good" deeds. However, what they fail to take into account is that we are wired to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, any good that we do is a direct result of how God created us to be. So when we go around puffing out our chest for doing a good deed as if we d del", for example. In fact, this inner voice is not really ours, it is God talking to us.
    I don't see how your view makes much sense. Within your free will theodicy, you have always wanted to say that God's plans of love required His granting us freedom -- as in, personal autonomy over our choices and actions. By any reasonable interpretation, God's granting us freedom in this sense should include his creating us to be genuine sources of our own choices and actions. But, now, you seem to be saying that we are not genuine sources of a great many of our choices -- namely, all those "good" ones that you say we have been hard "wired" with drive to perform. Make up your mind: either God granted us autonomy or He didn't. If He did, then it seems accreditation should come back to one for both good and bad choices.

    By the way, my objection has nothing to do with your remark about "puffing [one's] chest" out in a display of self-importance; it has to do with your reasoning of accreditation, which does not seem consistent. If free will holds; and we are accredited for evil choices; why wouldn't we also stand to be accredited for good choices? Or, if we don't stand to be accredited for good choices; then why would we stand to be accredited for evil ones? Or, if we don't stand to be accredited for good choices; then why think your free will holds any weight at all anyway?
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    05 Apr '10 07:23
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think? I mean
    some may steal, lie, cheat, and think all others do too, but they are not
    like those others who are really bad, so to themselves they are good. If
    the standard is all who agree and think like me are good, that is a moving
    standard that can change as the thoughts of the day bend ...[text shortened]... ll will fall short due to our lack of
    consistency over time, and none of us are good.
    Kelly
    Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think?

    Not really. The question that prompted the thread was "Do most people believe they're good?" Of course, two different persons can both believe they themselves are good and yet hold very different conceptions of what it means to be good. So, his question really doesn't depend on a "standard" of good that is mutually embraced. Or maybe I am not understanding your points in this post?
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