04 Apr 10
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about yourself, the priest did a bad job of the homily.
This makes me wonder whether, in general, people think they're "good" and if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by pawnhandlerThere is a scripture which says something to the effect that we are all "good" in our own eyes, even though we admittedly have done "bad" things. So which is it?
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by pawnhandlerSure I'm good. Maybe not the best yet, but cetainly good enough to be called good.
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by pawnhandlerhttp://www.watchtower.org/e/20060101/article_02.htm
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
This is some helpful infomation on the Bibles viewpoint of why we sin....
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by pawnhandlerThe ego is constantly telling you that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. The ego is the probelm.
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... d if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.y
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by pawnhandleryou should be encouraged at a Christian meeting, not told how much a piece of worthless rubbish you are.
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
(Hebrews 10:24-25) . . .And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.
05 Apr 10
1 edit
Originally posted by pawnhandlerSort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think? I mean
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
some may steal, lie, cheat, and think all others do too, but they are not
like those others who are really bad, so to themselves they are good. If
the standard is all who agree and think like me are good, that is a moving
standard that can change as the thoughts of the day bend our thinking this
way or that, which means good isn't really a standard that is settled, but
a sliding scale that is never set and will never be settled due to the fact we
are always making it up as we go.
If good is a standard that does not change due to popular opinion or
the mood of the day, I'd say we all will fall short due to our lack of
consistency over time, and none of us are good.
Kelly
05 Apr 10
Originally posted by KellyJayNot even the little babies?
Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think? I mean
some may steal, lie, cheat, and think all others do too, but they are not
like those others who are really bad, so to themselves they are good. If
the standard is all who agree and think like me are good, that is a moving
standard that can change as the thoughts of the day bend ...[text shortened]... ll will fall short due to our lack of
consistency over time, and none of us are good.
Kelly
05 Apr 10
Originally posted by pawnhandlerOnly God is good.
I ask this in this forum because I think people's self-beliefs can stem from their religion. For example, when I went to a Baptist church in Texas, the pastor declared that we were all bad and going to the smoking section of eternity. So I stopped going to that church.
I also heard a nun once declare that if you leave church feeling good about you ...[text shortened]... nd if that belief is because of or in spite of a religion or religious/spiritual experience.
Jesus paid our sin debt. Once one believes and trusts, by faith, in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross, then God is justified in declaring us righteous.
That righteousness is the righteousness of Christ. Not our own righteousness.
So we are not really good. If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
05 Apr 10
Originally posted by josephwI agree. I would just add to that people often get confused because we are capable of "good" deeds. However, what they fail to take into account is that we are wired to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, any good that we do is a direct result of how God created us to be. So when we go around puffing out our chest for doing a good deed as if we did something great, we are in error. Our drive to do the decent thing did not originate with us so it should not be credited to us. Conversely, when we do "evil", we are doing the opposite of what we were wired to do. That is why we have trouble living with ourselves when we go against this inner voice. We then need to rationalize our behavoir in order to live with ourselves. For example, if we kill someone we just say that it is nothing personal, its just business. Or perhaps we say they are less than human. Perhaps they are an "infidel", for example. In fact, this inner voice is not really ours, it is God talking to us.
Only God is good.
Jesus paid our sin debt. Once one believes and trusts, by faith, in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross, then God is justified in declaring us righteous.
That righteousness is the righteousness of Christ. Not our own righteousness.
So we are not really good. If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
05 Apr 10
Originally posted by josephwIf we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
Only God is good.
Jesus paid our sin debt. Once one believes and trusts, by faith, in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross, then God is justified in declaring us righteous.
That righteousness is the righteousness of Christ. Not our own righteousness.
So we are not really good. If we were good we would be perfect, don't you think?
No. Since when did being good imply being perfect?
05 Apr 10
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyI don't see how your view makes much sense. Within your free will theodicy, you have always wanted to say that God's plans of love required His granting us freedom -- as in, personal autonomy over our choices and actions. By any reasonable interpretation, God's granting us freedom in this sense should include his creating us to be genuine sources of our own choices and actions. But, now, you seem to be saying that we are not genuine sources of a great many of our choices -- namely, all those "good" ones that you say we have been hard "wired" with drive to perform. Make up your mind: either God granted us autonomy or He didn't. If He did, then it seems accreditation should come back to one for both good and bad choices.
I agree. I would just add to that people often get confused because we are capable of "good" deeds. However, what they fail to take into account is that we are wired to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, any good that we do is a direct result of how God created us to be. So when we go around puffing out our chest for doing a good deed as if we d del", for example. In fact, this inner voice is not really ours, it is God talking to us.
By the way, my objection has nothing to do with your remark about "puffing [one's] chest" out in a display of self-importance; it has to do with your reasoning of accreditation, which does not seem consistent. If free will holds; and we are accredited for evil choices; why wouldn't we also stand to be accredited for good choices? Or, if we don't stand to be accredited for good choices; then why would we stand to be accredited for evil ones? Or, if we don't stand to be accredited for good choices; then why think your free will holds any weight at all anyway?
05 Apr 10
Originally posted by KellyJaySort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think?
Sort of depends on what the standard is for good is don't you think? I mean
some may steal, lie, cheat, and think all others do too, but they are not
like those others who are really bad, so to themselves they are good. If
the standard is all who agree and think like me are good, that is a moving
standard that can change as the thoughts of the day bend ...[text shortened]... ll will fall short due to our lack of
consistency over time, and none of us are good.
Kelly
Not really. The question that prompted the thread was "Do most people believe they're good?" Of course, two different persons can both believe they themselves are good and yet hold very different conceptions of what it means to be good. So, his question really doesn't depend on a "standard" of good that is mutually embraced. Or maybe I am not understanding your points in this post?