It is so self evident that we are material beings that I do not understand why you need to ask the question. Your denial of reality is not evidence of another reality.
I never denied we are at least partly material beings.
I don't believe your thoughts can be reduced to material things.
I don't think our belief, loves, knowledge, etc, are made up of atoms.
Many neuroscientists would not agree that we are totally 100% material beings only.
@sonship saidName one (that isn't also a theist).
Many neuroscientists would not agree that we are totally 100% material beings only.
@sonship saidWe are though we are definitely 100% material beings. Our loves, beliefs etc are produced in our brains which is definitely made of atoms.
@kevcvs57It is so self evident that we are material beings that I do not understand why you need to ask the question. Your denial of reality is not evidence of another reality.
I never denied we are at least partly material beings.
I don't believe your thoughts can be reduced to material things.
I don't think our belief, loves, knowledge, etc, ar ...[text shortened]... up of atoms.
Many neuroscientists would not agree that we are totally 100% material beings only.
That is not to claim that there is no spiritual aspect to existence, there may well be. My logic based beef with dogma based belief systems is that without a shred of evidence they twist the spiritual into an illogical rule based codex which they then claim to be spiritual.
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My logic based beef with dogma based belief systems is that without a shred of evidence they twist the spiritual into an illogical rule based codex which they then claim to be spiritual.
Kevcvs57 This sounds to me like a kind of pop mantra.
I bet you believe many things on less evidence.
First you said that you have no idea what Jesus really said.
You were offered evidence to allay your fears on the "ignorance" matter.
I gave you some evidence that we have more reason to believe we have an excellent account of what Jesus said more so then practically anyone else in antiquity. That evidence you apparently ignored.
It is possible for someone to pre-determine that NO amount of evidence can persuade one that he should receive Christ as Lord, Savior, the Son of God . . . No evidence.
It becomes ever shifting game of whack-a-mole. Some of us have been through "But I don't have enough evidence" rationale. I don't think the major problem is with lack of evidence.
The consummately physicality of humanity, I may comment on latter.
@sonship saidUnfortunately all your evidence comes from a book I’ve already decided is a book of fiction so it’s worse than useless. I’m not going to praise or vilify Jesus of Nazareth based on what is claimed in the Bible and interpreted by anyone who fancies themselves as an urban apostle.My logic based beef with dogma based belief systems is that without a shred of evidence they twist the spiritual into an illogical rule based codex which they then claim to be spiritual.
Kevcvs57 This sounds to me like a kind of pop mantra.
I bet you believe many things on less evidence.
First you said that you have no idea what Jesus really said. ...[text shortened]... is with lack of evidence.
The consummately physicality of humanity, I may comment on latter.
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Unfortunately all your evidence comes from a book I’ve already decided is a book of fiction so it’s worse than useless. I’m not going to praise or vilify Jesus of Nazareth based on what is claimed in the Bible and interpreted by anyone who fancies themselves as an urban apostle.
What's wrong with an urban apostle?
Folks in the city need to hear about Christ just as much as anyone else.
What kind of arrogance assumes God cannot send someone to city folk tell them about His salvation?
I find that some people don't want to believe the words of Jesus because they were spoken long ago. But behind the words spoken long ago is the living God to freshly illuminate those truths to the ones who have an ear to hear.
If the words were spoken in more "modern" times the same people are not sure about passing fads and want to know the wisdom has been tested by time. This is a kind of "Too old if spoken then / To recent if spoken lately". These rationales seem excuses to me.
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As for vilify or praise Jesus, I think you have to vilify anyone who spoke such momentous things as either a madman or the worst deceiving liar in history. Like when they sent soldier to arrest Him, they failed. The authorities asked why they failed. They said "No man has ever spoken like this man."
No man has ever spoken like Jesus.
I don't think anyone would invent a character like Jesus Christ even if they were capable of doing so. I think the vested interest in man is that Jesus not speak.
Of course some things spoken by Jesus comforting. Never were such f=comforting words uttered. Yet the whole package is containing many things I don't think leaves anyone unoffended.
You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
But first it will piss you off.
Any conspiracy theory you present as to how this man was concocted and words placed into His mouth and deeds imagined up and attributed to Jesus, I would probably find require more "faith" then just believe the Gospel accounts.
Surely, some Galilean fishermen didn't spin tales and invent words to pass a fictional hoax on the world. It didn't have any worldly benefit for them except to get them executed.
I don't have enough faith to believe probably any conspiracy theory you propose of Jesus, whether scientific, political, patriarchal, and least of all religious.
We are though we are definitely 100% material beings. Our loves, beliefs etc are produced in our brains which is definitely made of atoms.
That is not to claim that there is no spiritual aspect to existence, there may well be
Before we get to a spiritual aspect I have questions about the psychological aspect.
You would not trust the print out of a computer that was randomly programmed. Why would you trust the reasoning of a mind that emerged from random forces or non-rational without a mind behind them ?
@sonship saidHaha a new pinnacle in a lack of self awareness.
@kevcvs57Unfortunately all your evidence comes from a book I’ve already decided is a book of fiction so it’s worse than useless. I’m not going to praise or vilify Jesus of Nazareth based on what is claimed in the Bible and interpreted by anyone who fancies themselves as an urban apostle.
What's wrong with an urban apostle?
Folks in the city n ...[text shortened]... ind of "Too old if spoken then / To recent if spoken lately". These rationales seem excuses to me.
Someone foisting their religious beliefs on someone random person in the street is just wrong. You may be blaspheming in that persons eyes or you might be promulgating a book that claims an intimate aspect of their personal lives is an aberration.
But like all fakirs and medicine men you don’t really care as long as you retain to yourself the right to judge others based upon your proximity to your imaginary friend.
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Haha a new pinnacle in a lack of self awareness.
Someone foisting their religious beliefs on someone random person in the street is just wrong. You may be blaspheming in that persons eyes or you might be promulgating a book that claims an intimate aspect of their personal lives is an aberration.
But like all fakirs and medicine men you don’t really care as long as you retain to yourself the right to judge others based upon your proximity to your imaginary friend.
I am similarly amused at your reply. Hey, an urban sociologist or urban psychoanalyst is about the same as an urban apostle.
Besides, this forum is an invitation to discuss themes about Spirituality. right? Do you feel you were grabbed to come in here? The "General" Forum would be more like pulling or grabbing random people off the street.
But more to the issue relevant here about "Does a Christian embrace his humanity?" It is an interesting one.
I think I embrace the totality of my God given humanity more than I would if I believed random forces have caused me to be only physical forces from unintelligently designed chance combinations of matter.
A totally physical me leaves no ground for choices. If we are only bubbling chemical reactions and electrical events, what ground is there to assume you CHOSE your beliefs ? No credit to your freedom to CHOOSE a true belief. You are just fizzing matter producing that effect.
So I think I as a Christian embrace a greater totality of my humanity in that I do have a free will to choose to believe this or that.
Kevcvs57,
In your next post could you explain some more how there could be an identity continuously conscious of changing physical brain states. If we are just a "moist machine" active matter from where comes a consciousness through time of - "It is still ME " as various physical arrangements of matter go from state to state?
What unites as a sense of one continuous ego enduring through millions of re-combinations and arrangements of matter ?
I think you lose some humanity rather than embrace in only material view of humanity.
And WHY would such a purely material combination of molecules and atoms and electrical synapsis need to invent an "imaginary friend" anyway ?
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@sonship said“ I am similarly amused at your reply. Hey, an urban sociologist or urban psychoanalyst is about the same as an urban apostle. ”
@kevcvs57
[quote] Haha a new pinnacle in a lack of self awareness.
Someone foisting their religious beliefs on someone random person in the street is just wrong. You may be blaspheming in that persons eyes or you might be promulgating a book that claims an intimate aspect of their personal lives is an aberration.
But like all fakirs and medicine men you don’t really care a ...[text shortened]... e a greater totality of my humanity in that I do have a free will to choose to believe this or that.
Err no, no they’re not both of those other dogmas are based on observable reality. You can quibble with the interpretation but the idea that they are as ephemeral as the writings that an apostle basis there dogma on is just plain silly.
“ Besides, this forum is an invitation to discuss themes about Spirituality. right? Do you feel you were grabbed to come in here? The "General" Forum would be more like pulling or grabbing random people off the street.”
You should read my posts more carefully, I’ve already established that you and all other believers in dogma based certitudes are the least spiritual amongst us and certainly you have no intention of joining us in our spiritual journey. You have long ago decided to curl up at home with a ‘Good Book’ .
Surely the universe holds no potential for someone as enlightened as yourself.