Does God Believe in Atheists?

Originally posted by jaywill
Jammer,

I found this comment from you interesting:

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I think when God utters something we'll all know who is speaking.
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If such a speaking from God to man did possibly, I say even possibly, occur, who do you think is the best candidate in history to have uttered su ...[text shortened]... cord of, whose would you say come the closest to possibly being the speaking of God to mankind?[/b]

Certainly NO Pope, Priest, Rabbi or Minister i've ever heard speak.

The only name that comes to mind is Jesus Christ

"generation of vipers" - Matthew 12:34

Jesus would certainly have won any dissing-battle, but I wouldn't consider some of the things he said to be godly.

I'll suggest Descartes. He was pretty incredible.

Originally posted by Varqa
I did not make a stupid statement. Read it again. Look at the smiley at the end. It was a ^%&*^ joke.

I am not in the habit of judging people. I do not think you are stupid, but you are certainly rude. That is the problem with you atheists. For some reason you think not believing in God gives you a license to be rude and obnoxious.

Okay. You phrased your joke in a way that made you look stupid. Satire doesn't work over the net. I apologise for insulting you, if it truly was a joke. Perhaps you should read over what you write and think about it before you post though - trust me, I've seen people here that believe (marginally) dumber things than you posted. I had no reason to believe your post was a joke.

Originally posted by jammer
Certainly NO Pope, Priest, Rabbi or Minister i've ever heard speak.

The only name that comes to mind is Jesus Christ

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The only name that comes to mind is Jesus Christ

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Thanks.

As I understand your response you are saying that the best candidate in human history to qualify for uttering words of God is Jesus Christ.

I agree. On the other hand you did say that if God did speak everyone should know it.

So my second question to you is:
Did you notice the reaction of people to the speaking of Jesus? It got Him crucified.

Don't you think then that there is not so much a problem with recognizing when God speaks as there is with the reaction of humans.

What do you say about the situation, that at least many people, don't want to hear what God has to say?

Comment on human opposition to the speaking of God.

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Jesus would certainly have won any dissing-battle, but I wouldn't consider some of the things he said to be godly.

I'll suggest Descartes. He was pretty incredible.
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Descartes may have said some incredible things. But you should consider some comparisons:

Jesus Christ said that His words were more lasting than actual physical universe:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35)

Jesus Christ said that at the sound of His voice the tombs would be emptied and all the dead would come forth to be judged:

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His [the Son of God's] voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29)

Jesus Christ said that the spiritually "dead" who hear His voice would enter into a new divine life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)

Jesus Christ said that the very nature of His words were spirit and divine life:

"It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63)

Jesus Christ said that those who hear His words and believe int the One Who sent Him have eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)


Jesus Christ said the hearing and receiving of His words makes the believer clean:

"You are already made clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." (John 15:3)


Jesus Christ claimed to speak the very words of the Father God which were given to Him to speak:

"For the words which You gave Me I have given to them, and they received them and knew truly that I came forth from You, and have believed that You sent Me." (John 17:8)

Jesus Christ claimed that the words He spoke from His Father are the sanctifying truth to His disciples:

" Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth." (John 17:17)


Jesus Christ also claimed that the speaking of His words was the working of the Father:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me?
The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works." (John 14:10)


Jesus claimed that His words were the words of the Father Who sent Him into the world:

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me." (John 14:24)

Jesus claimed that to keep His words would cause He and His Father to come into the keeper and make a living abode within them:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

Jesus Christ said that His coming and speaking to the world gave people no more excuse for their having sin:

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." (John 15:22)


His words astonished the hearers:

"And when Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His teaching, For He taught them as One having authority and not like their scribes." (Matt. 7:28,29)

Lastly, Jesus claimed that all authority in the universe had been given into His hands:

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and and on earth.

Go therefore and disciple all the nations, ... " (Matt. 28:19)


Even when the disciples were perplexed and tempted to leave Him because of the controversy of His words, they confessed they had no one else to go to for such speaking:

"From that time many of His disciples went back to what they left behind and no longer walked with Him.

Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Do you also want to go away? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." (John 6:66-68)

Compare Descartes again with Jesus of Nazareth.

I believe the original quotation was "when god's speaking, I think we'll know it's him". I would say claims to divinity actually degrade the possibility of the words being of god, as they seem arrogant. And I believe the original post is referring to beauty in speech. None of what you quoted seems particularly beautiful to me. Jesus has better stuff attributed to him. But for beauty with words, I'll stick with Descartes and maybe Confucius though I bet most of his quotations weren't actually him.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Are you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?

More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God's eyes, even though they can be morally good in the eyes of some humans?

But surely there is only *one* answer to the questi ...[text shortened]... lly believe in objective morality, do you?

That makes you a moral relativist, doesn't it?

there should be only one standard, God's. and by God's standards, atheists arent morally good.

the problem is others reduce there standards to the world's standards which arent the same

Originally posted by awalt08
there should be only one standard, God's. and by God's standards, atheists arent morally good.

the problem is others reduce there standards to the world's standards which arent the same

How old are you, mate?

God KNOWS that some will refuse to believe that he exists

Originally posted by TheSkipper
How old are you, mate?

08?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Are you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?

No. I'm saying that God's standard is infinitely higher than our standard, no matter how good our standard may be.

More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God' come unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom. 3:11-12).

So, you are claiming that, according to God's standard--the one that you endorse, and regard as being the correct objective standard--someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good?

I think that is nonsense. I know several morally good atheists. One of the kindest, sweetest people I know is an atheist. So your view is simply false and bigoted.

This is not just my subjective opinion. There are objective signs too. For example, criminologists have long noted that atheists are unrepresented among the offender population.

Perhaps you would contend that abiding by man's laws is irrelevant to higher virtue. Still, I hope we can agree that being less likely to rape, rob, and murder is a small step on the road to righteousness.

I bet that if the Bible said that Blacks were vermin, you'd believe that too, and claim that it represents a higher standard of morality than those endorsed by petty humans.

Incidentally, do you think letting witches live represents an inferior form of worldly virtue?

Originally posted by jaywill
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Jesus would certainly have won any dissing-battle, but I wouldn't consider some of the things he said to be godly.

I'll suggest Descartes. He was pretty incredible.
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Descartes may have said some incredible things. But you should consider some comparisons:

Jesus Ch ...[text shortened]... )[/b]

Compare Descartes again with Jesus of Nazareth.[/b]

Do you derive pleasure from your incessant and slavish biblical quotation, or is it a burden your willing bear for the greater glory of God?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Do you derive pleasure from your incessant and slavish biblical quotation, or is it a burden your willing bear for the greater glory of God?

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Do you derive pleasure from your incessant and slavish biblical quotation, or is it a burden your willing bear for the greater glory of God?
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Fair question which I will try to answer for you.

From my own personal experience when an argumentative, doubting, fault finding, teasing, skeptical disbeliever in the Christians gospel -

I had many arguments and discussions with believers. I do not remember hardly ANYTHING about the points of those debates. What I do remember is some verse from the Bible.

Because this was my personal experience I always try to quote the Bible. I think that if years from now some unbeliever does finally meet Jesus Christ it will probably be because of something written in the Bible which penetrated the darkness of their hearts and granted them revelation.

I debated for a long time with a friend named Randy while in college. I don't remember the arguments I had or the arguments he had. All I remember is this little snatch of conversation:

'Jay, I don't know how many times I have to tell you!

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

Jesus Christ is the living Word of God! '

That's is all I remember. Somehow by a MIRACLE of God's mercy I am a believer now. I never intended to be. But that sentence from the Bible must have planted within me the ability to believe in Jesus.

For that reason - I try always to include in my discussion quotations from the word of God. I can't say it better than the Bible says it.

Originally posted by jaywill
I have considered the subject of believing that there is no God in the Bible itself.

I can see much indication that God believes that atheists exists. Can any Bible student give me a reason to believe that God believes in Athiests?

Frankly, sir, WHO bloody cares what some god thinks? What was HE thinking (or where we he) when 6 million jews were slaughtered?

Originally posted by Stregone
Frankly, sir, WHO bloody cares what some god thinks? What was HE thinking (or where we he) when 6 million jews were slaughtered?

Frankly sir, I can see God coming through even after a tragedy such as the holocaust has taken place. I can see God coming through in the end in spite of this tragedy and any number of others which have taken place on the earth run over by sinful men.

On the other hand I can't see how your thoughts enlighten us on the problem or any alternative plan of salvation from you we should put our hope in.