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21 Jul 07
Originally posted by jaywillPs 53:1
I have considered the subject of believing that there is no God in the Bible itself.
I can see much indication that God believes that atheists exists. Can any Bible student give me a reason to believe that God believes in Athiests?
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.
(NKJ)
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterThanks checkbaiter.
Ps 53:1
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.
(NKJ)
Do you think this means that God believes that real athiests exist?
Or does it mean that people are fools for letting the thought enter into their hearts? IE. A fool says something in his heart which he knows cannot be the case.
I'm not sure. What do you feel?
21 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillIf a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound when there is absolutely no one around to hear it? This is a trick question, because the word sound is meaningless without someone to hear it.
I have considered the subject of believing that there is no God in the Bible itself.
I can see much indication that God believes that atheists exists. Can any Bible student give me a reason to believe that God believes in Athiests?
Similarly, existence requires an observer. If you place a rock inside a box and place the box in your closet, does the rock still exist in there? It exists when you look, but for it to exist continually there has to be an ever-present observer. That observer, my friend, is God!
So, thanks to God, the atheists do exist.
😛
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by jaywill"For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
I have considered the subject of believing that there is no God in the Bible itself.
I can see much indication that God believes that atheists exists. Can any Bible student give me a reason to believe that God believes in Athiests?
John 3:16
The operative word here is "whoever."
If an antheist can be considered as part of the group known as "whoever," then they can be saved.
If they can be saved, they must first exist.
God simultaneously knows all the knowable.
Ergo, God is aware there are those who characterize themselves as atheists.
21 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHFreaky,
"For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that [b]whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16
The operative word here is "whoever."
If an antheist can be considered as part of the group known as "whoever," then they can be saved.
If they can be saved, they must first exist.
God si ...[text shortened]... e knowable.
Ergo, God is aware there are those who characterize themselves as atheists.[/b]
I agree with the point that "whosoever" includes all types of people, who may believe and receive eternal life in Christ.
Romans seems to say that humans are without excuse to not believe in the existence of God:
Because that which is known of God is manifested within them, for God manifested it to them. For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse. (Romans 1:18b-20)
So far we have evidence from Scripture that the fool says in his heart that there is no God.
Then we have evidence that God deems that every person is without excuse in not being aware that God exists. The Romans passage says that at least the objective knowledge about God's existence He has "manifested within them". This inward manifestation is connected to the witnessing of creation itself as an indication of the eternal power and divine characteristics of God.
Does God believe that real athiests exist then?
The previous portion of the 18th verse says this - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who HOLD DOWN THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, because that which is known of God is manifested within them ..." (my emphasis).
This must mean that by act of will power, some people "HOLD DOWN THE TRUTH". They actively suppress from rising up within them what their conscience KNOWS to be true.
The passage also says that this holding down, this suppressing of the truth is done in "unrighteousness". God accounts it as morally wrong to hold down the truth of the existence of God.
They have no excuse, says Romans.
The truth has been manifested within them, it says.
The truth is perceived by the very creation, it says.
The eternal power of God and the divine characteristics of God are manifested via the universe itself.
The fool says in his heart there is no God.
And the unrighteous one has no excuse but holds down the knowledge of God's existence by effort of will.
Does God believe then that actual athiests exist?
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeAre you speaking of Psalm 53?
So, it's impossible to deliberately be an atheist and be a good person, is it?
Did it say that only atheists were morally not good or all people?
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.
They are corrupt and commit abominable deeds;
There is none who does good. (v.1)
God looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see
if there was anyone who had insight, who seeks after God. (v.2)
All of them have turned back; They are together perverse.
There is none who does good.
There is not even one. (v.3)
Does the Psalmist single out only atheists as not being good or all people?
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole...In God's eyes, not our own, of course. His standards are a bit higher. Which is why we all need the shed blood of Jesus Christ to cover our nature and our sins, which God imputes to us through faith in Christ.
So, it's impossible to deliberately be an atheist and be a good person, is it?
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21 Jul 07
Originally posted by jaywillIt doesn't matter what I think, but what does the bible say? He is a fool because God has made Himself known through nature, His word and through His Son whom He sent into this world. Not to mention that God has set eternity in the heart of man. That is, the desire to live beyond this life.
Thanks checkbaiter.
Do you think this means that God believes that real athiests exist?
Or does it mean that people are fools for letting the thought enter into their hearts? IE. A fool says something in his heart which he knows cannot be the case.
I'm not sure. What do you feel?
Eccl 3:11
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
(NKJ)
🙂
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasAre you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?
...In God's eyes, not our own, of course. His standards are a bit higher. Which is why we all need the shed blood of Jesus Christ to cover our nature and our sins, which God imputes to us through faith in Christ.
More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God's eyes, even though they can be morally good in the eyes of some humans?
But surely there is only *one* answer to the question of whether someone is morally good or not--however hard that is to determine, and however complex the reality.
However, because you think there is *more* than one answer, then you don't really believe in objective morality, do you?
That makes you a moral relativist, doesn't it?
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by jaywillI am asking posters to express their own opinion about the matter.
Are you speaking of Psalm 53?
Did it say that only atheists were morally not good or all people?
[b]The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.
They are corrupt and commit abominable deeds;
There is none who does good. (v.1)
God looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see
if there was anyone who had ...[text shortened]... one. (v.3)
Does the Psalmist single out only atheists as not being good or all people?[/b]
I am getting the distinct whiff of prejudice against atheists in the air.
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterVery good.
It doesn't matter what I think, but what does the bible say? He is a fool because God has made Himself known through nature, His word and through His Son whom He sent into this world. Not to mention that God has set eternity in the heart of man. That is, the desire to live beyond this life.
Eccl 3:11
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. A ...[text shortened]... that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
(NKJ)
🙂
21 Jul 07
3 edits
Originally posted by PawnokeyholePawnokey,
Are you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?
More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God's eyes, even though they can be morally good in the eyes of some humans?
But surely there is only *one* answer to the questi lly believe in objective morality, do you?
That makes you a moral relativist, doesn't it?
Though you are not talking to me and I can't answer for the poster, Id' like to express some response anyway, because they are important questions.
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Are you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?
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The passage in Psalm 53 said that no one is good. I take it to mean in the final anaylsis, ultimately all fall short of God's standard.
At the same time the Bible does show some goodness comes out of people when they act according to their conscience. All of our goodness is a filthy rags before God. Yet there is still something He calls "our goodness."
Probably this little response does not do the question complete justice.
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More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God's eyes, even though they can be morally good in the eyes of some humans?
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The Romans passage said that it is unrighteous to hold down the truth about God's existence. Doing something else "good" does not atone for the unrighteousness of holding down the truth.
The passage goes on to say that these "holder downers" commit the sin of not glorifying God and not being thankful to God:
Because though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or thank Him, but rather became vain in their reasonings, and their heart, lacking understanding, was darkened. (Rom. 1:21)
The "holder downers" of the truth go on then to put forth effort to not glorfiy God and to refuse to be thankful to God for ANYTHING.
What floods into their souls to fill the vacuum is "vain" reasonings - "rather they became vain in their reasonings". And what took the place of proper understanding was a "darkened" heart.
I see a mind full of reasoning which are vain and a conscience "darkened," - morally unenlightened, unconscious, dull, numb, stupefied.
"Professing to be wise, they became fools" (v.22)
The downward slide which Paul describes from men holding down the truth of God's existence leads to a long list of sins which he ends up condemning as "worth of death". These things are not restricted to atheists though. They are:
idol worship of creatures they substitute for God - v.23
homosexual activity - vs. 25-27
wickedness v.29
covetousness v.29
malice - v.29
full of envy - v.29
murder - v.29
strife - v.29
deceit - v.29
malignity - v.29
whisperers - v.30
slanderers - v.30
hateful to God - v.30
insolent - v.30
arrogant - v.30
boasters - v.30
inventors of evil things - v.30
disobedient to parents - v.30
senseless - v.31
faithless - v.31
affectionless - v.31
merciless - v.31
Paul says that these sins make a person "worthy of death."
After this list of indictments Paul says that the sinners delight in these things and also take delight in those who are practicing them.
Who, though fully knowing that the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight i those who practice them. (v.32)
That is the end of chapter one. The first verse in chapter two says that the righteous judgment of God is "according to truth".
The last judgment upon mankind is according to truth. It is not a relative matter depending on who is taking account. It is simply a judgment according to what is true - "But we know that the judgment of God is ACCORDING TO TRUTH upon those who practice such things." (Romans 2:1b)
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But surely there is only *one* answer to the question of whether someone is morally good or not--however hard that is to determine, and however complex the reality.
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I see your point. And I think this much response does not deal completely with the subject. But coming out of the relative 1960s these passage hit me like a lightening bolt - that "the judgment of God is according to truth ...". I said to myself - "you mean everything is not relative ?"
Paul is laying the foundation for the need of Justification by Faith in the Redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ, developed in subsequent chapters of the book.
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However, because you think there is *more* than one answer, then you don't really believe in objective morality, do you?
That makes you a moral relativist, doesn't it?
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No, if one arrives at the point that the last judgment upon all people by God will be "according to truth".
Romans one lays the foundation of the universal guilt of all mankind before God. And then it builds up the doctrine of Justification through Faith in Christ's redemptive death and resurrection for man's salvation.
And that is not the end of the book either. He goes on to develop how man receives dispositional righteousness through transformation of the Holy Spirit's sanctification process. I know you didn't ask about all of that.
I just loved to get people interested in studying the New Testament for themselves, if possible.
I'm a propagandist, of things which are real and true, that is.
21 Jul 07
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeAre you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?
Are you claiming that whether something is actually morally good or bad depends on who is applying the standards?
More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God's eyes, even though they can be morally good in the eyes of some humans?
But surely there is only *one* answer to the questi ...[text shortened]... lly believe in objective morality, do you?
That makes you a moral relativist, doesn't it?
No. I'm saying that God's standard is infinitely higher than our standard, no matter how good our standard may be.
More specifically, are you claiming that someone who is deliberately an atheist cannot be morally good in God's eyes, even though they can be morally good in the eyes of some humans?
Again, God's standard is much higher than ours. What is morally good in our eyes still falls short in God's eyes.
But surely there is only *one* answer to the question of whether someone is morally good or not--however hard that is to determine, and however complex the reality.
There is only one Person's answer that ultimately counts: God's.
However, because you think there is *more* than one answer, then you don't really believe in objective morality, do you?
Personally, I don't believe in more than one standard. I believe in God's standard.
That makes you a moral relativist, doesn't it?
Yes, according to your assumptions. But you are assuming that I believe human moral standards are legitimate separate from God's standards, which I don't. So, no, I'm not a moral relativist.
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"All our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6).
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom. 3:11-12).