Spirituality
02 Aug 19
02 Aug 19
If Satans' actions in the "end times" are prophesied (preordained) then Satan is doing "gods' will". If Satan really wanted to mess things up he would become a "good guy" and prove who was really in charge. Or maybe take a 2000 year vacation.
If god is forcing Satan to be evil then it is not Satan who is evil.
Satan, free will or no free will ?
02 Aug 19
@caissad4 saidForeknowing is not the same as fore-ordaining.
If Satans' actions in the "end times" are prophesied (preordained) then Satan is doing "gods' will". If Satan really wanted to mess things up he would become a "good guy" and prove who was really in charge. Or maybe take a 2000 year vacation.
If god is forcing Satan to be evil then it is not Satan who is evil.
Satan, free will or no free will ?
Moreover, those prophecies can be said to have been revealed long after Satan had made his decision to fall from heaven. However, that is assuming that we know how time works.
03 Aug 19
@philokalia saidInteresting idea.
Foreknowing is not the same as fore-ordaining.
Moreover, those prophecies can be said to have been revealed long after Satan had made his decision to fall from heaven. However, that is assuming that we know how time works.
But, if Satan has read the Book of Rev, he knows how to short circuit the prophesies.
Of course, this is contingent on Satan having read or knowing the content of Book of Rev.
But, does Satan actually have free will ?
@caissad4 saidWhen one thinks on a profound level, it makes NO sense that the creator of the universe needs to be SO immature as to require a "son" (with no mother) to be killed for sins that the creator already knew we'd commit.
If Satans' actions in the "end times" are prophesied (preordained) then Satan is doing "gods' will". If Satan really wanted to mess things up he would become a "good guy" and prove who was really in charge. Or maybe take a 2000 year vacation.
If god is forcing Satan to be evil then it is not Satan who is evil.
Satan, free will or no free will ?
The Jesus story, and the hell story, are just that....stories.
03 Aug 19
@caissad4 saidOf course Satan has free will. Look at what he's done to humans since Adam. Well if you believed in the Bible that is.
Interesting idea.
But, if Satan has read the Book of Rev, he knows how to short circuit the prophesies.
Of course, this is contingent on Satan having read or knowing the content of Book of Rev.
But, does Satan actually have free will ?
But a couple things Satan cannot do and one is he cannot leave the confines of the earth. If you were interested just go to Rev 12:9-17 to see this event in heaven.
Verse 9: So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered hims because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea,w because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child."
Do you understand what this is saying? Probably not but I have to ask.
Also in the future he will try to destroy God's people and Jehovah will not allow it and sure Satan know what the Bible says. But he can't change anything in the future no matter how he might try. Jehovah would never allow it..
03 Aug 19
@galveston75 saidWait a minute. First you say Satan has free will.
Of course Satan has free will.
Also in the future he will try to destroy God's people and Jehovah will not allow it and sure Satan know what the Bible says. But he can't change anything in the future no matter how he might try. Jehovah would never allow it..
Lastly you say that Satan cannot change anything in the future no matter how he might try. That Jehovah would never allow it.
Now that we have established that Jehovah is controlling Satan, the question becomes why do Christians keep blaming Satan when god is in control of Satan.
Looks contradictory to me.
03 Aug 19
@caissad4 saidYou have to remember that poor Galveston is not a very bright guy. Go easy on him.
Wait a minute. First you say Satan has free will.
Lastly you say that Satan cannot change anything in the future no matter how he might try. That Jehovah would never allow it.
Now that we have established that Jehovah is controlling Satan, the question becomes why do Christians keep blaming Satan when god is in control of Satan.
Looks contradictory to me.
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I think this situation, similar to the story of Judas, might be an example of an ethical riddle or koan that is presented (wittingly or not) by the canonical scriptures.
I wonder if the Christian traditions have included wisdom gained from Jewish Torah study regarding the turning-over of such ethically unclear situations to consider the nuances in light of scripture [edit: and later commentary] as a whole.
Did Satan and the other rebel angels rightly perceive that God was a tyrant, or was God just misunderstood? Was Satan just partially right, and is God in need of forgiveness? If Satan is the enemy, or if God is, or if both are, are you willing to forgive them?
But really, all of this quibbling over what some ancient Jews came up with thousands of years ago is very similar to quibbling over canonicity of this or that story-line at a comic-book convention.
BTW, rumor has it that in the Abrahamic Cinematic Universe, following the standard story beats and script template of the present day, Satan will voluntarily selflessly sacrifice himself in the Lake of Fire so that God can be defeated and the entire Cosmos finally liberated from this ancient Jewish nonsense.
@caissad4 saidYou cannot rebel unless you are able to make a choice. God who is able to create creatures/beings that can actually make their own choices, isn't going to be surprised by any of them, but foreknowledge doesn't mean He forced them into it. It is a powerful and precious thing to be able to make up our own minds, it is protected to the point that what we choose can go against even what God desires for us, and we are held accountable for them including Satan for his choices that are right now all motivated by hate and evil.
If Satans' actions in the "end times" are prophesied (preordained) then Satan is doing "gods' will". If Satan really wanted to mess things up he would become a "good guy" and prove who was really in charge. Or maybe take a 2000 year vacation.
If god is forcing Satan to be evil then it is not Satan who is evil.
Satan, free will or no free will ?
03 Aug 19
2 edits
@caissad4 saidSomeone who knows drugs are ruining their lives and the lives of those around them by their actions, they can go on making bad choices till the day they die. Knowing the road your on leads to death and destruction doesn't stop you from walking it, making a choice not to walk it by repenting can, and even there we are taught to ask a higher power for help in some circles, or go directly to God.
Interesting idea.
But, if Satan has read the Book of Rev, he knows how to short circuit the prophesies.
Of course, this is contingent on Satan having read or knowing the content of Book of Rev.
But, does Satan actually have free will ?
With some their hate so drives them that even while forgiveness is offered for all of the wrongs they have done, they would still rather burn due to their rage and hate. Making choices isn't always rational, being rational doesn't always lead to good choices. It is far more complex than all of that.
03 Aug 19
@chaney3 saidJust stories can be true. If you don't see the reason doesn't mean that there isn't a very profound one there that has escaped your notice.
When one thinks on a profound level, it makes NO sense that the creator of the universe needs to be SO immature as to require a "son" (with no mother) to be killed for sins that the creator already knew we'd commit.
The Jesus story, and the hell story, are just that....stories.
03 Aug 19
@kellyjay saidWell, that was a very interesting rant.
Someone who knows drugs are ruining their lives and the lives of those around them by their actions, they can go on making bad choices till the day they die. Knowing the road your on leads to death and destruction doesn't stop you from walking it, making a choice not to walk it by repenting can, and even there we are taught to ask a higher power for help in some circles, or ...[text shortened]... tional, being rational doesn't always lead to good choices. It is far more complex than all of that.
But if Satan has free will and he knows the content of Book of Rev then he could shortcircuit your whole end time story. And it would probably be a good idea from his perspective.
03 Aug 19
@caissad4 saidI'm not in the mind of the devil, I have no idea why he does what he does, but I think his whole being is filled with hate. There were predictions about Jesus that have come true, you think Satan isn't aware of those? He wants to defeat God and succeeding against God's will by making his own will come to pass thereby making God fail.
Well, that was a very interesting rant.
But if Satan has free will and he knows the content of Book of Rev then he could shortcircuit your whole end time story. And it would probably be a good idea from his perspective.
There just is no win against God.
03 Aug 19
@caissad4 saidWhere did I ever say Satan can control the future on all things as you are implying or that Jehovah is controlling Satan on all things as you are implying? Sure Satan can guide things to make a certain situation happen but so can we. I could make you talk to me longer in a conversation because I know one of the intersections that you'll be driving thru to go home between 5 and 6 PM is extremely dangerous. If you drive thru it later and you don't get hit by a car, one could say I influenced a possible bad future for you.
Wait a minute. First you say Satan has free will.
Lastly you say that Satan cannot change anything in the future no matter how he might try. That Jehovah would never allow it.
Now that we have established that Jehovah is controlling Satan, the question becomes why do Christians keep blaming Satan when god is in control of Satan.
Looks contradictory to me.
And I mentioned just two things that comes to mind that Jehovah would not allow. Maybe there is more I can't think of right now but the point here is not what your claiming. It's not cool to misquote someone.
03 Aug 19
@kellyjay saidIf Satan moved to the planet Kolob for eternity that would cause your holy, holy book prophesies to never occur. What would your god do then ??
I'm not in the mind of the devil, I have no idea why he does what he does, but I think his whole being is filled with hate. There were predictions about Jesus that have come true, you think Satan isn't aware of those? He wants to defeat God and succeeding against God's will by making his own will come to pass thereby making God fail.
There just is no win against God.