Doomed from birth?

Originally posted by c guy1
another play on this:
What about our Jewish brothers? They believe in the same God we do. Do they go to hell? But as someone mentioned, faith isn't about the other guy, it's about you and what you choose to believe.

Refer back the passage from Lumen Gentium I cited on the first page - the first sentence deals with Jews.

So what you are saying is that if I live a good kind generous life then I go to heaven. What is there to be gained by living by the bible then compared with living just an atheist good life?

And that of course is on the off chance you are right about this “God” character.😉

Originally posted by Will Everitt
So what you are saying is that if I live a good kind generous life then I go to heaven. What is there to be gained by living by the bible then compared with living just an atheist good life?

1. "Living" a good, kind, generous life is more than just about 'going through the motions'; i.e. performing actions that other people would consider good, kind and generous. Those actions must spring from your inner being, else they won't matter for salvation in the Christian viewpoint.

2. Living just a good atheistic life when you have the opportunity to commune and share in God's life is like having the talent to paint like Da Vinci but choosing to paint road signs all your life; it's a waste. Of all created material beings, humans are the only ones who can have a relationship with God.

3. In many atheistic philosophies, a "good" atheistic life is an oxymoron.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
1. "Living" a good, kind, generous life is more than just about 'going through the motions'; i.e. performing actions that other people would consider good, kind and generous. Those actions must spring from your inner being, else they won't matter for salvation in the Christian viewpoint.

2. Living just a good atheistic life when you have the opport ...[text shortened]... with God.

3. In many atheistic philosophies, a "good" atheistic life is an oxymoron.

"1. "Living" a good, kind, generous life is more than just about 'going through the motions'; i.e. performing actions that other people would consider good, kind and generous. Those actions must spring from your inner being, else they won't matter for salvation in the Christian viewpoint."

What do you mean? Say I do charity work and voluntary work I am kind to everyone I meet I try never to disagree with anyone to strongly, never use violence to solve any problems. I do all this to help people and improve the quality of there lives and get happiness from seeing their happiness increased? Is that enough or would I get turned away at the pearly gates? What’s the difference between this and doing it by my/with my “inner being” what does that mean? Does it mean doing it unselfishly?

"2. Living just a good atheistic life when you have the opportunity to commune and share in God's life is like having the talent to paint like Da Vinci but choosing to paint road signs all your life; it's a waste. Of all created material beings, humans are the only ones who can have a relationship with God."

I do not see what is to be gained by spending time in church I don't think it really teaches the way to a better life. I don't see what is to be gained by praising god I think there are better things to do with my time/mind.

It annoys me that these things should matter to a God I think if we are going to be judged be judged on everyday actions on everything rather then if we go to church or not, if we believe in God or not. I think there are more important things to define a person.

Assume there are two people one does not kill because of a fear of god and hell the other does not kill because he sees it as wrong. I would rather be the second person I don't feel I need a book/religion to tell me how to live my life, what actions to take I feel the better person will be able to make those decisions and the weaker person will need to look it up in a book or ask a higher being.

Originally posted by Will Everitt
"1. "Living" a good, kind, generous life is more than just about 'going through the motions'; i.e. performing actions that other people would consider good, kind and generous. Those actions must spring from your inner being, else they won't matter for salvation in the Christian viewpoint."

What do you mean? Say I do charity work and voluntary work I ...[text shortened]... ons and the weaker person will need to look it up in a book or ask a higher being.

1a. No matter what you do, it's never "enough" in the sense of 'earning' a place in heaven. Heaven is a place of absolute moral perfection - can you honestly say you've never done one wrong thing in your whole life? I can't.

Does this mean everyone's going to get turned away from the "pearly gates"? No. We can't buy a place in heaven with our actions, but we can receive it as an unmerited gift.

1b. What does doing good by one's inner being mean? It means doing good because you are/want to be good, not just for praise or other ulterior motives.

2a. What's to be gained by spending time in church? What's to be gained in spending time with your friends, or your family, or your wife/husband? We spend time with our loved ones not for tangible benefits.

Are there better things to do with your time/mind? Not really. Your mind was made for the glory of God. Taking a little time out of your busy schedule (and He doesn't ask for much - just a few hours a week) is not a massive burden.

2b. Do these things matter to God? Everything we do matters to God. You can spend 12 hours a day in church screaming "Hallelujah" at the top of your voice and it won't matter if you're a selfish, unkind, hateful person outside.

On the other hand, if you're a good, unselfish, kind person then that's because of the graces God has given you; our ability to do good is a gift from Him. What kind of a person would you be if you did not take a little time (which all of us can afford) just to say "Thank you"?

2c. Believe me - I'd rather be the second person as well. Do I "need" a book/religion to tell me how to live my life? In one sense, yes - because I'm not morally perfect, nor do I claim to be. A sailor does not always need a lighthouse in calm seas, but he can be glad it is there. And when the sea is not calm, he needs the lighthouse to orient himself. That's what religion does.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
1a. No matter what you do, it's never "enough" in the sense of 'earning' a place in heaven. Heaven is a place of absolute moral perfection - can you honestly say you've never done one wrong thing in your whole life? I can't.

Does this mean everyone's going to get turned away from the "pearly gates"? No. We can't buy a place in heaven with our actio ...[text shortened]... e needs the lighthouse to orient himself. That's what religion does.

1a I think a God would be generous with heaven and when people are being judged judge them on the majority of there acts if they have made most decisions in there life with a selfish/negative frame of mind then it may be a no but if they have made most designs with a generous/positive frame of mind then it will be a yes. I am sure everyone has committed acts they regret, acts that are negative. The pope was a Nazi, I've thrashed out and hit people before and regretted it everyone has done these things but I think if they are not repeated, if they are learned from then they are forgivable and the person assuming the majority of there acts are positive shall be allowed into the big while pearly gates.

2a I enjoy spending time with these people and I think they enjoy spending time with me. I think that is a great benefit.

2b I have to say if there is a God I would think he would be happier for me to spend my time helping others, enjoying myself (not at the expense of others so no killing tramps for kicks) improving myself by learning about the things that interest me. Then spending all my time preaching about god, learning the bible and quoting and it spending time in church.

2c neither of us are perfect that’s agreed but I guess we can go about things in different ways. I may make mistakes and I hope to learn from them and not repeat them whereas you might not make them so easily but then you might not learn from them so easily. I think it might give me a more open mind.

Originally posted by Will Everitt
1a I think a God would be generous with heaven and when people are being judged judge them on the majority of there acts if they have made most decisions in there life with a selfish/negative frame of mind then it may be a no but if they have made most designs with a generous/positive frame of mind then it will be a yes. I am sure everyone has committed ...[text shortened]... ly but then you might not learn from them so easily. I think it might give me a more open mind.

1. Why should a God judge people by the majority of their acts? If I save ten people from drowning does it make up for the fact that I tortured and killed one complete stranger purely for the 'kick' of it?

What's your calculus of moral action? Is feeding a hundred hungry people for a day equivalent to a murder?

A diamond with the smallest flaw is not flawless, no matter how brilliant the rest of it is. As I said before, heaven is a place of perfection. We're not perfect and do not deserve heaven - but God's ready to let us in anyway. Does that give us the right to demand entrance on our terms and not His?

2a. People enjoy spending time with God, and God enjoys spending time with them. That's what church is all about.

If you're a father (and I don't know you aren't), you could put more food on the table by working 23 hours a day (or at least 18). You could give your family a better house, better clothes etc. Why do you then come home after an 8 or 9-hour day?

On a different track, if you have a son, would you rather he stayed up in his room studying all the time or would you rather he took a 10-minute break just to talk to you about his day?

2b. Different people have different talents, abilities and (yes) vocations. Do you think a high school science teacher is wasting his/her time by teaching science rather than engage his/her mind in scientific research? Some people are called to be preachers because they can do more good by inspiring other people to perform acts of charity etc. and because they have the ability to inspire other people.

All these convolutions and contortions make God's plan for salvation appear all the more brilliant.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
1. Why should a God judge people by the majority of their acts? If I save ten people from drowning does it make up for the fact that I tortured and killed one complete stranger purely for the 'kick' of it?

What's your calculus of moral action? Is feeding a hundred hungry people for a day equivalent to a murder?

A diamond with the smallest flaw i ...[text shortened]... perform acts of charity etc. and because they have the ability to inspire other people.

1 Ok either you misunderstood my meaning or I didn't state clearly enough what I meant. I think God would judge people by all there actions not just there religious views and I don't think there religious views should/would make much of a difference as long as they are positive and based on love kindness instead of hate and cruelty.

Do you think you need to deserve something to get it? I think a child who is disruptive, annoying, loud may not deserve a teacher’s attention and help but still should get it. Someone who has ruined there health by taking harmful drugs might not deserve all the effort and work of doctors and nurses trying to get that person back to health.

What you say of heaven makes me think of hell. How many people are really evil enough to deserve that?

2a Lets assume for a minute not everyone is like you if I don't enjoy spending time with God does that mean I should not?

I'm not a father I'm only 16. I think you are placing too much value on material possessions. I think there are more important things that’s why I would never work 23 hours a day (or even 18 I think I would die from exhaustion as well). I would rather work less and own less but spend more time in activities I enjoy for example with family or even putting to use some of that money I earned.

2b If a teacher enjoys teaching then that’s great they are doing a good useful job that they enjoy. It would be different to research but person A might enjoy and make a good teacher whereas person B might be a better researcher and enjoy that more. Let each person do what they want in that respect they are both useful productive jobs. I guess some preachers do go in aspects but I think the vast majority of what they preach is wrong let me take(adamantly an extreme)example http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html all these preachers do is bring hate, negative actions and I think it is terrible. As far as I have seen on the site there are no links called "the godhatesfags team does some charity work and doesn't impose there views on others for a day"
That is an extreme example but I think a lot of preaching for religious grounds does little good look at all the problems with Islam and those cartoons many of the preachers are preaching hate. Nothing constructive will come of it. I think it would be better for the type of people who are preachers to find a way to inspire as they do without the problems of religion attached become a writer, journalist, education or get into politics.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
All these convolutions and contortions make God's plan for salvation appear all the more brilliant.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

No thanks.

Originally posted by Will Everitt
1 Ok either you misunderstood my meaning or I didn't state clearly enough what I meant. I think God would judge people by all there actions not just there religious views and I don't think there religious views should/would make much of a difference as long as they are positive and based on love kindness instead of hate and cruelty.

Do you think you ...[text shortened]... oblems of religion attached become a writer, journalist, education or get into politics.

1a. I never said God would judge people solely on their religious beliefs, as though that were a free pass to heaven. Yes, our actions do come into the picture - but it's not as though God were maintaining a cosmic balance sheet of all our good and evil actions. Rather, it is the state of my soul at the time of my death that determines whether I will be in heaven or hell.

1b. Do I think I need to deserve something to get it? No. But there is a difference between my earning something and my receiving something as an undeserved gift. I don't need to show any gratitude for the first. I do need to for the latter.

1c. How many people in hell are evil enough that they deserve it? Quite simply - all of them.

2a(i). Not sure I understand your question. Could you rephrase it?

2a(ii). In fact, if you read my original question, you'll see that I am not placing an emphasis on material possessions. In fact, I am emphasising the point that members of a loving family spend time with each other even when it is not the most materially beneficial. The time we spend with God is similar. It's a way of recharging our "moral batteries".

2b. Some teachers can do a lot of damage (e.g. a teacher who rapes a student) - does that mean we need no more teachers? Of course not. We need teachers and we need to take all steps to ensure that they are good. It's the same with preachers.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
1a. I never said God would judge people solely on their religious beliefs, as though that were a free pass to heaven. Yes, our actions do come into the picture - but it's not as though God were maintaining a cosmic balance sheet of all our good and evil actions. Rather, it is the state of my soul at the time of my death that determines whether I will ...[text shortened]... and we need to take all steps to ensure that they are good. It's the same with preachers.

1c I'm not to sure how much I know about the Christian hell and how much I know wrongly from books, films, TV. As far as I know it is a very harsh place I would expect most people are not evil enough for that maybe one in a million people the Hitlers, the Jeffrey Dahmers, the Reinhard Heydrichs, the Ted Bundys. I would not expect most people would deserve hell I would think that thieves, vandals, adulterers, identity thieves would not deserve it.

2a (i) What I said was that I spend time with family and friends as I enjoy it and gain from it. You said you enjoy spending time with God. What I want to know is should someone how does not enjoy spending time with God spend time with him anyway?

2a (ii) Well we are agreed that there are more important things then possessions, but I think these are contained within you and the people you know. I don't think you need to pray to some omnipotent being for as you called it earlier "inner goodness".

2b You say some teachers can do wrong and you have a point. Most teachers do a good job with no real negative points. I think at the core of preachers there is wrong, there are lies this is something that you cannot be a preacher without even with it some preachers do good and some do terrible things. Teaching can be corrupted whereas preaching is corrupted.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not a Christian. Christianity does not make logical sense to me and I consider myself to be a fairly logical person. If the Christian God exists and sends me to hell for not believing in him then it would definately be unfair because it was he who made me with a logical mind, and never explained all the paradoxes and contradictions in the bible to me ...[text shortened]... ts then he would judge me fairly that he would judge me a better person than most people I know.

there is a reason why it's called faith. I too am a logical person. There are things in the Bible that contridict themselves sooo badly that it make me doubt the whole thing. God will, assuming He is there, will still judge you. Not on your works (Bible) but on if you believed in Him or not. And your excuss about not sending you to hell because he made you logical is bogus. While i'm still searching, and not entirly sure what to believe, I know that while God did make me a logical person, and that the Bible is not always logical, but you and I both still have the choice to have faith.