1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 19:45
    A question if I may. Do any of you actually believe authentically and honestly that the life you have lived so far is absolutely and exactly the only possible life you could ever have lived , period. ? That in reality there was no other possible life you could have lived apart from the one you have? Do you look back at door 18 and see your name written on the staircase?

    Or do you like me (because I believe in actual free will) believe that your life could have actually and really been different in at least some respects due to choices you could have ACTUALLY made but didn't or choices that you did make that you may not have actually made. ?

    Do any of you have any regrets , in the sense that you really honestly feel that you could have ACTUALLY lived a different life? Or maybe real relief at the very possible life you managed to avoid?

    And the big one--- do you feel fatalistic about your future or do you feel that your future can be influenced by your choices? Do you think that there is more than one possible life you can lead in the future , life x or life y? Do you really really feel that you are honestly in a door 18 universe?

    As someone believing in free will and real choices (not phoney ones) I can embrace these feelings and hopes and regrets as authentic and true . They are not at odds at all with what I logically believe about the universe.

    What's it like for you guys? It is not true that even if determinism was true we could never live authentically with that belief? Is there not something inside us all that cries out within us all " I have real choices to make between X and Y and both are possible!" ??

    Is this not what compatabilism is all about , the desire to resolve (or fudge) the massive discrepancy between our life experience and the fatalistic logic of determinism?
  2. Joined
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    14 Jun '07 19:48
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    A question if I may. Do any of you actually believe authentically and honestly that the life you have lived so far is absolutely and exactly the only possible life you could ever have lived , period. ? That in reality there was no other possible life you could have lived apart from the one you have? Do you look back at door 18 and see your name written ...[text shortened]... the massive discrepancy between our life experience and the fatalistic logic of determinism?
    Seriously, mods. Have a word, eh?
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 22:03
    Originally posted by dottewell
    Seriously, mods. Have a word, eh?
    Once again you choose not to engage but scoff instead. If I were a compatabilist I could just let you off because it's inevitable , but I'm not. What I find interesting about your approach is that you think I'm talking nonsense but you somehow feel it's important to take the time to have a dig anyway. Me thinks you scoff too much!
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    14 Jun '07 22:061 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Once again you choose not to engage but scoff instead. If I were a compatabilist I could just let you off because it's inevitable , but I'm not. What I find interesting about your approach is that you think I'm talking nonsense but you somehow feel it's important to take the time to have a dig anyway. Me thinks you scoff too much!
    with all respect, you cannot prove anything you say, maybe the wisdom of a child is far greater than any of the words spoken on this forum by anyone... maybe we just die and that really is it... maybe we create our own heaven, maybe... etc... all maybe's... you can search your whole life and at the end you'll be no closer than when you started
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    14 Jun '07 22:10
    im kinda starting to think maybe we do live in a "door 18 universe".
  6. Joined
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    14 Jun '07 22:471 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    A question if I may. Do any of you actually believe authentically and honestly that the life you have lived so far is absolutely and exactly the only possible life you could ever have lived , period. ? That in reality there was no other possible life you could have lived apart from the one you have? Do you look back at door 18 and see your name written the massive discrepancy between our life experience and the fatalistic logic of determinism?
    What do you mean by "the only possible life you ever could have lived?" I can't go back and change it, so at the moment, yes, it's the only life I ever could have lived, given my present state.

    Perhaps you mean "could someone with sufficient knowledge of the state of the universe at the moment of your birth have predicted the course of your life up to this point?" In that case, there are quantum mechanical problems where measuring the state of the universe changes it in unpredictable ways and that answer is probably no. Unless you want to posit an entity that can determine the exact state of the universe (the location & velocity of each particle, etc.) without disturbing any of it. In that case, assuming that entity knows the exact physical laws of the universe, then they could predict the course of a person's life and that life could be said to be "determined."

    But does it really make sense to say that that person has no "free will?" Imagine a chess engine, calculating what move to make in a certain position. It operates according to a strictly deterministic algorithm whose results can be predicted in advance, but it is still making a choice (perhaps a very good one). Of course, the algorithm can only ever produce one possible answer, but that does not mean that answer does not come about through a real choice and as a result of real deliberation.

    If this isn't free will, then one of the defining traits of free will must be that the choices of an entity that possesses it cannot be predicted with complete accuracy. This means that if we set this entity in some universe and allow it to make a choice, and then "reset" the universe to the original state, and allow it to make the choice again, the result might be different. How could the result be different? Either the physical laws of the universe must be nondeterministic (in which case you must explain why this nondeterminism should be called "free will" and not "randomness" ) or something outside the scope of the physical laws of the universe must be affecting things (in which case you must explain what is going on and why we should believe such a thing exists). How do you resolve this, knightmeister, since you seem to believe in a free will that lets you arrive at different choices from the same starting point?
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 22:51
    Originally posted by GregM
    What do you mean by "the only possible life you ever could have lived?" I can't go back and change it, so at the moment, yes, it's the only life I ever could have lived, given my present state.

    Perhaps you mean "could someone with sufficient knowledge of the state of the universe at the moment of your birth have predicted the course of your life up to this ...[text shortened]... e will that lets you arrive at different choices from the same starting point?
    but that does not mean that answer does not come about through a real choice and as a result of real deliberation.


    ....a choice between what and what? The last time I looked a choice had something to do with two options not one.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 22:542 edits
    Originally posted by GregM
    What do you mean by "the only possible life you ever could have lived?" I can't go back and change it, so at the moment, yes, it's the only life I ever could have lived, given my present state.

    Perhaps you mean "could someone with sufficient knowledge of the state of the universe at the moment of your birth have predicted the course of your life up to this e will that lets you arrive at different choices from the same starting point?
    or something outside the scope of the physical laws of the universe must be affecting things (in which case you must explain what is going on and why we should believe such a thing exists). How do you resolve this, knightmeister, since you seem to believe in a free will that lets you arrive at different choices from the same starting point? GREG

    The answer is right there in your question. The thing is God and what is going on is he's interfering (excuse the connotations) with us as it were. I am not saying one should believe it , just batting his corner.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 23:02
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    with all respect, you cannot prove anything you say, maybe the wisdom of a child is far greater than any of the words spoken on this forum by anyone... maybe we just die and that really is it... maybe we create our own heaven, maybe... etc... all maybe's... you can search your whole life and at the end you'll be no closer than when you started
    No disrespect taken. I know I can't prove a thing , no-one can . All anyone can do is make a convincing case and for me the experience of free will is very very convincing. My life could go down one road or another and both are possible. I do not really believe that my future is determined and I don't think compatabilists do either , but logically they should do. But then they don't seem to give a fig about authenticity and being congruent to what they say they believe but they still have the audacity to slag off theists for being dissingenuous and deluded.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 23:03
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    im kinda starting to think maybe we do live in a "door 18 universe".
    Don't worry , if we are it was inevitable you would think this.
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    14 Jun '07 23:061 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    A question if I may. Do any of you actually believe authentically and honestly that the life you have lived so far is absolutely and exactly the only possible life you could ever have lived , period. ? That in reality there was no other possible life you could have lived apart from the one you have? Do you look back at door 18 and see your name written the massive discrepancy between our life experience and the fatalistic logic of determinism?
    In the past I've somethings I really regret. At the time they seemed like big deals, but some were just pretty childish things that really don't matter. I can't even remember what they were now, but I do remember that feeling of 'why did that have to happen?'. Its something like the feeling I get when I make a really bad move in chess.

    Sometimes something happens which narrowly avoids being something else for me to regret. I end up dwelling on how bad life would be if I'd done something slightly differently. I almost got hit by a car before Christmas last year. I thought the road was clear, and I paused for a moment to make sure before stepping out. If I'd stepped out a moment eariler I'd have been hit by the car, becasue as it turned out I looked the wrong way. (I am very stupid sometimes.)

    When I think about it, for all those times somethings gone wrong, there must be hundreds of other times when I haven't even realised that something awful could have happened if I'd made a slightly different disicion. Maybe those times when I wished so badly that I could go back in time and change something would have resulted in something even worse if I actually had done.

    Sometimes thinking about this leads me on to whether we really choise what we do. Could I have actually changed any of those events? Recently I was arguing about evolution. I said humans may not have not existed if time could run from the begining again. There is no reason why we should, ifs just random chance. My friend argued that if you go back to the big bang, a sequence of cause and effect was set up. Every supposedly random event actually only appears random. What ever caused that event directed it exactly as it did. It couldn't have occured differently without the original cause being different.

    So every choise we make depends on any choises that come before us. What causes the random chemical reaction in our brains that makes us think or do one thing over another? What caused the thing that caused the thing that caused the reaction to occur? Is every little thing I do a result of all the little things that have come before? If you reset time, would I still be here saying these same things, becasue the same big bang set of the same sequence of cause and effect?


    In answer to your question; I don't have a clue.
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Jun '07 23:25
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    In the past I've somethings I really regret. At the time they seemed like big deals, but some were just pretty childish things that really don't matter. I can't even remember what they were now, but I do remember that feeling of 'why did that have to happen?'. Its something like the feeling I get when I make a really bad move in chess.

    Sometimes some ...[text shortened]... sequence of cause and effect?


    In answer to your question; I don't have a clue.
    In answer to your question; I don't have a clue.



    ...don't worry bro. you are asking all the right questions.
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    15 Jun '07 00:01
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    you think I'm talking nonsense but you somehow feel it's important to take the time to have a dig anyway.
    I did the same for STANG. It's for the good of the community, and ultimately for your own good, too.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
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    15 Jun '07 00:24
    Originally posted by dottewell
    I did the same for STANG. It's for the good of the community, and ultimately for your own good, too.
    Thank goodness , for a moment there I thought you were deflecting from addressing the issues! phew!
    I'm so lucky to have you to look after me and keep me from asking good old fashioned simple questions that get under people's skin.

    Are you sure you are not just protecting yourself under the pretence of looking after the 'community' . ?

    I argue strongly but fairly , I don't insult like some do .
  15. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    15 Jun '07 08:16
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    A question if I may. Do any of you actually believe authentically and honestly that the life you have lived so far is absolutely and exactly the only possible life you could ever have lived , period. ? That in reality there was no other possible life you could have lived apart from the one you have? Do you look back at door 18 and see your name written ...[text shortened]... the massive discrepancy between our life experience and the fatalistic logic of determinism?
    Neither. I believe we have choice, but that choice is constrained by the choices others make, as well as the rules of reality.
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