Originally posted by twhitehead
I still disagree, the experience doesn't back you up. It is your delusional interpretation that does.

We shall see....bring it on!

Originally posted by knightmeister
If I'm right then most people experience my free will not yours. Free will (my version) does have problems regarding coherency but in terms of experience it trumps your (so called) free will any time because people do believe that there is potentially more than one future out there to choose for themselves.

You have not shown that your version of free will matches the answer you claim people will give. In fact since your version is incoherent as you admit, they couldn't possibly claim to experience it.
Your questionnaire was badly posed anyway as it is too vague.

Lets analyze your sentence:
"there is potentially more than one future out there to choose for themselves."
Do you mean:
1. There are multiple actual time lines that exist.
2. Different time lines will result depending on the choice made.
If you choose 2. then it is fully compatible with determinism.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You have not shown that your version of free will matches the answer you claim people will give. In fact since your version is incoherent as you admit, they couldn't possibly claim to experience it.
Your questionnaire was badly posed anyway as it is too vague.

Lets analyze your sentence:
"there is potentially more than one future out there to choose ...[text shortened]... depending on the choice made.
If you choose 2. then it is fully compatible with determinism.

In fact since your version is incoherent as you admit, they couldn't possibly claim to experience it. WHITEY

It's incoherent in the sense that it does not match your rigid rationalisations of the world which takes no account of mystery but as far as human experience goes it's very coherent.

Let's clarify it and take it from there...

" When you make an important decision about your future do you feel that more than one future is actually possible and that depending on what you choose one of those futures(a) will happen and the other future(b) will not happen. However , do you also feel that the other future (b) could also happen and future (a) is not neccessarily destined to happen. In other words do you feel you are carving your own future out of multiple real and possible futures or do you feel that you are simply fulfilling your predetermined destiny. ? Think about an important decision you have made in the past , do you feel that an alternative timeline was really possible (and not just theorectically) or do you feel that the past is as it was always destined and determined to be and could never ever have been any other way no matter how many times the past was repeated"

Waht do you think people will say?

(Bear in mind that I WILL keep churning out variations of this question until I find one that gets past your pedantry )

Originally posted by twhitehead
You have not shown that your version of free will matches the answer you claim people will give. In fact since your version is incoherent as you admit, they couldn't possibly claim to experience it.
Your questionnaire was badly posed anyway as it is too vague.

Lets analyze your sentence:
"there is potentially more than one future out there to choose ...[text shortened]... depending on the choice made.
If you choose 2. then it is fully compatible with determinism.

Do you mean:
1. There are multiple actual time lines that exist.
2. Different time lines will result depending on the choice made.
If you choose 2. then it is fully compatible with determinism.


2. Is not compatable I'm afraid because with determinism there can only ever be one timeline whereas you have said timelines.

Originally posted by knightmeister
2. Is not compatable I'm afraid because with determinism there can only ever be one timeline whereas you have said timelines.

You just don't get it do you. I did say timelines, I did not say they exist (that is 1).

Originally posted by twhitehead
You just don't get it do you. I did say timelines, I did not say they exist (that is 1).

Here's another question we could ask people...

"First read the DOOR 17 story. Does it ring true for you? Think about the life you have chosen to live. Looking back do you honestly feel it was all pre-determined? Do you really believe that it could never have been any other way? Or do you look back and think that there were certain crossroads in your life where it was really possible for you to taken that door or this? Do you believe that Door 17 was the only door you were only ever going to take? When you look at the next big decision you have to make will you look at it and think behind only one of these doors is a staircase or will you feel that other doors have staircases too.?"

I wager 90%+ will reject the door 17 model as true for them.


(I've only just begun...there's more..)

Originally posted by knightmeister
I wager 90%+ will reject the door 17 model as true for them.


(I've only just begun...there's more..)

And I wager that 90%+ will not (like you) understand the question.

Given a choice A or B at time T1 and with hindsight you know that you chose B.
What do you mean if you say "at T1 A was still possible"?

1. Do you mean that there are multiple timelines and in another universe A was actually chosen
2. Do you mean that given an exact rerun of events, A might get chosen (random choice).
3. Do you mean ..... (incoherent nonsense) ......?

And how exactly does any of this support your view (which changes every day or so)? You are stating what you think people will claim they experience but are yet to show that it defies my view or supports yours.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And I wager that 90%+ will not (like you) understand the question.

Given a choice A or B at time T1 and with hindsight you know that you chose B.
What do you mean if you say "at T1 A was still possible"?

1. Do you mean that there are multiple timelines and in another universe A was actually chosen
2. Do you mean that given an exact rerun of events ...[text shortened]... eople will claim they experience but are yet to show that it defies my view or supports yours.

I think you are being patronising to the general population if you think that they won't understand the question. They would know full well what they are being asked and what their experience is. People experience choice and action between A and B as if both outcomes are real and possible. When people say "I wonder what would have happened if I had married Doris instead" they generally do not mean " I wonder what it might have been like with Doris , but of course I know that it could never have happened" They actually mean " I wonder what it could have been like if I had married doris instead , that was a whole life I could have lived but I didn't (for better or worse)"

You also need to consider that neuro scientists are claiming that new research supports the idea that we don't actually have free will and that free will is an illusion. What free will do you think they are talking about that people seem to think they have? It certainly can't be your free will since that free will is consistent with determinism , so it must be the free will I'm on about that these scientists believe they are de-bunking.

The fact that people experience my free will primarily proves nothing . You just need to accept that it's part of the human experience to choose A over B and also really believe that B could have happened. This may or may not be illusionary.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think you are being patronising to the general population if you think that they won't understand the question. They would know full well what they are being asked and what their experience is.

And yet you were unable to answer my question attempting to clarify what you mean by "both outcomes are real and possible". Are you not as clever as the general population then?

The fact that people experience my free will primarily proves nothing.
Yet you have not yet shown that to be a fact and stating it over and over does not constitute proof but rather an indication that you cannot show it.

You just need to accept that it's part of the human experience to choose A over B and also really believe that B could have happened. This may or may not be illusionary.
Until you clarify what "B could have happened." really means you are not talking about anything other than my version of free will so yes of course I accept that is is part of the human experience an no it is not an illusion and it proves that my version of free will is what is really happening!

Originally posted by twhitehead
And yet you were unable to answer my question attempting to clarify what you mean by "both outcomes are real and possible". Are you not as clever as the general population then?

[b]The fact that people experience my free will primarily proves nothing.
Yet you have not yet shown that to be a fact and stating it over and over does not constitute pro ...[text shortened]... is not an illusion and it proves that my version of free will is what is really happening![/b]

What exactly are you trying to achieve here? Are you stalling? It's only a matter of time before I come up with a way of phrasing the question that will illustrate my point and satisfy whatever spanners you try to throw into the works.

How about " have you ever chosen A over B with the clear feeling that you could also in that very moment have also chosen B over A via an act of free choice - ie that both alternatives were actually really open to you in a way that meant that neither A or B were destined or determined but dependent on your choice"


(I'm getting closer and closer and closer......😲 )

Originally posted by knightmeister
What exactly are you trying to achieve here?

What I am trying to achieve it to get you to realize that what you believe to be an experience of your free will is actually an experience of my concept of free will but you just wont accept it partly because you don't understand it as demonstrated in every one of the threads you have started on the subject.

How about " have you ever chosen A over B with the clear feeling that you could also in that very moment have also chosen B over A via an act of free choice - ie that both alternatives were actually really open to you in a way that meant that neither A or B were destined or determined but dependent on your choice"
Lets see ... not destined not determined but dependent. Do you honestly think that you are making sense?

Here is my view and my understanding of what I experience. A choice is an IF statement. It takes an input and outputs either A or B. Without an input, A or B can be said to be "real possibilities". An input determines the output. For a given input, only one output is possible. The input is my will.
So far you and I agree and so does everyone who answered your questionnaire because you questionnaire does not distinguish any further.
Where we disagree is where my will comes from, or what determines it. You believe that it is essentially random (but wont admit it). I believe that it is partly dependent on life experience as well as random chance - again not that much different from you. The only real difference is that you believe that the random generator is supernatural and I do not.
Since there is really no difference between our views except that one point - the source of the randomness, then any questionnaire is totally useless in proving your point unless that is what you ask in your questionnaire.

Or have you changed your view of free will yet again and forgotten as usual to tell anyone?

Originally posted by twhitehead
What I am trying to achieve it to get you to realize that what you believe to be an experience of your free will is actually an experience of my concept of free will but you just wont accept it partly because you don't understand it as demonstrated in every one of the threads you have started on the subject.

[b]How about " have you ever chosen A over B ...[text shortened]... Or have you changed your view of free will yet again and forgotten as usual to tell anyone?

What I am trying to achieve it to get you to realize that what you believe to be an experience of your free will is actually an experience of my concept of free will but you just wont accept it partly because you don't understand it as demonstrated in every one of the threads you have started on the subject. WHITEY

Hang on a minute , you have jumped to Z before going through A . I'm not on about beliefs as such because we already know that we have different beliefs about free will. What I am on about is the primary experience. There is the experience itself and then the belief that comes after it . My primary experience (in some choices) is one of tension (sometimes) , potentially urgency , and a feeling of the importance of the process of my choice. There is also a feeling of a weight of responsibility on my choice that falls on me if I choose wrongly. I also experience a feeling (that is harder to describe) of the potential for both outcomes to happen which is DISTINCT from the sensation of feeling that "if I were a different person then I might have chosen differently "

Now , the expereince of both outcomes being really possible (ie of having reached a fork in the road ) and both outcomes feeling like they are both possible for me (and not if I had a different charactor) could be illusionary and not signify anything or it could be evidence of something else. So in this sense my experience could be illusionary , however , I reject the idea that your concept of free will is what i experience because I don't experience the choices A and B placed in front of me as one being inevitable and determined and the other not. Neither choice feels inevitable to me and this is my point because I think that many people experience the same thing from time to time.

Notice that you say "I won't accept it " in the sense that I could accept it if I wanted to but I choose not to. You are projecting willful stubborness on to me which implies some level of frustartion with me which makes little sense if you really believe my stubborness is inevitable.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What I am trying to achieve it to get you to realize that what you believe to be an experience of your free will is actually an experience of my concept of free will but you just wont accept it partly because you don't understand it as demonstrated in every one of the threads you have started on the subject.

[b]How about " have you ever chosen A over B ...[text shortened]... Or have you changed your view of free will yet again and forgotten as usual to tell anyone?

Lets see ... not destined not determined but dependent. Do you honestly think that you are making sense? WHITEY


Stop changing context. What we are discussing is what I and other people experience. Whether it makes sense or not philosophically speaking is not relevant at this point. I experience hallucinations sometimes when I dream and wake up , they make no sense but that is the primary data of my experience. This is an approach you don't seem to understand , first be open to what you are experiencing , then go away and analyse what this means for you. If you start analysing too early you miss the experience.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What I am trying to achieve it to get you to realize that what you believe to be an experience of your free will is actually an experience of my concept of free will but you just wont accept it partly because you don't understand it as demonstrated in every one of the threads you have started on the subject.

[b]How about " have you ever chosen A over B ...[text shortened]... Or have you changed your view of free will yet again and forgotten as usual to tell anyone?

Or have you changed your view of free will yet again and forgotten as usual to tell anyone? WHITEY

Can we get back on track please......my experience of free will has always been the same since before I can remember. What was changing was the way I have been explaining my argument for free will. You go soooo quickly through the gears don't you. What we need to re-focus on is what is the primary experience of human beings in the area of choice making and acting via one's will. You are thinking too much to think clearly , go and have a hot bath or something and come back to it.

Maybe a way forward would be for you to come up with a question that you think is Ok (since you seem to be so much better at it than me) that we could ask in our imaginary survey that would reveal whether people generally (or sometimes even) experience their choices as determined or not determined or both. Maybe you think it's impossible to devise such a question?

Originally posted by twhitehead
What I am trying to achieve it to get you to realize that what you believe to be an experience of your free will is actually an experience of my concept of free will but you just wont accept it partly because you don't understand it as demonstrated in every one of the threads you have started on the subject.

[b]How about " have you ever chosen A over B ...[text shortened]... Or have you changed your view of free will yet again and forgotten as usual to tell anyone?

Without an input, A or B can be said to be "real possibilities". An input determines the output. For a given input, only one output is possible.WHITEY

...But this is clearly not what I said...I was very very careful with the wording so as to include the feeling that both outputs were possible . Of course , for a given input only one outcome is possible because by then the decision has benn made. However , sometijmes the decision making process for human beings is "what input shall I give in order to bring about either A or B"