Doubly Unjust

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I have never even stated that 'I am saved eternally', far more to boast about it.
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Then you don't have any assurance of being saved as Paul taught -
He used the PAST TENSE -

[quote] " For by grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith ..." (Eph. 2:8) ...[text shortened]... EN saved doesn't impress me. You argue like one who has never read the book of [b]Galatians.[/b]

I have never ever said that I am saved by good works either ... liar !

Rather than focus on the teachings of Christ and focus on the following of His commandments which you often decry and belittle as unimportant, you waltz around claiming 'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" .

Christ has the answer for Christians like yourself:

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Originally posted by Rajk999

I have never ever said that I am saved by good works either ... liar !
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According to what you just wrote on this thread you have never said you were saved period.


Rather than focus on the teachings of Christ and focus on the following of His commandments which you often decry and belittle as unimportant,
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I do not decry or belittle as unimportant the commandments of Christ. Liar.

you waltz around claiming 'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" ..'IM SAVED" .
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No I don't waltz around. You have contempt for the New Testament so when you try to rob believers of the legitimate proclamation they can make it seems to you like waltzing around.

You have contempt for those who don't lie down and let you walk over with with your Arminian legalism. I am not dancing. I am standing.


Christ has the answer for Christians like yourself:
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Thank God for that. We don't have to get answers from your twisted Arminian legal crap. You're the kind of people they had to have a council concerning in Acts 15.


Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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To call on the Lord IS something the Lord has told us to do.

Jeremiah 33:3

"Call unto Me, and I will answer you and tell you great and hidden things, which you did not know."

So part of the things God has told us to do is to CALL upon the name of the Lord. And we follow the Lord on His many other commands if we wish to be normal Christians. I do.

Besides He is "rich" all who call upon Him (Rom. 10:12) 10:12). I want the Lord to be rich to me so I CAN obey Him.

To live Christ we first have to contact Christ. And in contacting Christ we need to experience the riches of Christ - the riches of His grace.

I'm saved. I'm saved. I'm saved .
And I am in the process of being perfected as Jesus prayed.

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one " (John 17:23a)

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
NKJV

Jesus already paid for the sins of the whole world! Sin is no longer the problem, the sin which so many will be condemned for, is to deny Jesus as your payment for sins.
If anyone thinks they have been forgiven only to the point of the now, then there is no more forgiveness for them, because Jesus died once for all.
He can not be crucified again for future sins.

Heb 9:12-13
ot with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NKJV

Heb 9:28
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
NKJV

Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

Anyone with a sin conscience has not received Jesus as the propitiation, payment for their sins.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
NKJV

Jesus already paid for the sins of the whole world! Sin is no longer the problem, the sin which so many will be condemned for, is to deny Jesus as your payment for sins.
If anyone thinks they have been forgiven only ...[text shortened]... Anyone with a sin conscience has not received Jesus as the propitiation, payment for their sins.

Here is an example of the deluded logic that plagues your doctrine: You said:

Jesus already paid for the sins of the whole world! Sin is no longer the problem, the sin which so many will be condemned for, is to deny Jesus as your payment for sins.

1. Jesus already paid for the sins of the whole world!
2. Sin is no longer the problem,
3. the sin which so many will be condemned for, is to deny Jesus as your payment for sins

#1 is in the Bible... absolutely correct

# 2 and # 3 is NOT IN THE BIBLE and is the reason why so many Christians live in a fools paradise.

That is a fabrication created by brilliant false teachers to fool the gullible much like yourself.

The Bible is very very clear that sin after you have accepted the truth or believed in Christ or given Holy Spirit gifts - SIN IS A VERY BIG PROBLEM... because it is tantamount to crucifying Christ all over again and putting Christ to shame, God does not tolerate that and you will be destroyed if you continue in sin.

I know you dont want to see the verses again because you are happy in your delusion.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here is an example of the deluded logic that plagues your doctrine: You said:

Jesus already paid for the sins of the whole world! Sin is no longer the problem, the sin which so many will be condemned for, is to deny Jesus as your payment for sins.

1. Jesus already paid for the sins of the whole world!
2. Sin is no longer the problem,
3. ...[text shortened]... in sin.

I know you dont want to see the verses again because you are happy in your delusion.

The twisted logic is all yours friend.
Let's play out your religious thinking...A person believes in Christ today, and all his sins are forgiven, paid for in an instant as long as he puts his/her faith in Jesus.
Are you still here? Anything wrong with that scenario?

Now let's take another leap here. Tomorrow this same person has a bad day and curses someone in anger. But wait, he realizes his mistake and asks God's forgiveness again, and every time thereafter.
Now, the first time, when he became aware of Jesus, etc., his sins were forgiven by the atonement at the cross, correct?
But now it gets a little weird. When he sinned the second time, and he asked God's forgiveness( he repented), did God just say, okay, I forgive you.?
How exactly does this work, since Jesus was crucified once. Does he have to get crucified every time a person sins?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The twisted logic is all yours friend.
Let's play out your religious thinking...A person believes in Christ today, and all his sins are forgiven, paid for in an instant as long as he puts his/her faith in Jesus.
Are you still here? Anything wrong with that scenario?

Now let's take another leap here. Tomorrow this same person has a bad day and curse ...[text shortened]... is work, since Jesus was crucified once. Does he have to get crucified every time a person sins?

I guess you are calling Pauls logic twisted:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

I cannot understand what is wierd about it .. makes perfect sense to me.

If your faith is weak and you are led astray by the world for whatever reason then there are consequences. What these consequences are .. only God knows.

Is Peter also twisted?

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

Originally posted by Rajk999
I guess you are calling Pauls logic twisted:

[i]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves ...[text shortened]... for whatever reason then there are consequences. What these consequences are .. only God knows.

I don't have a problem with these verses either. You are reading something into it of your own imagination. It is speaking the same thing as Romans.
If you submit to sin, it will become your master and it will lead to death of the body. Not loss of salvation.
It is interesting that Jesus had mercy on sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors.
But he had stunning rebuke for the religious hypocrites who wanted to perfect the flesh by commandments. They thought that by obeying religious regulations, they would please God.
The law was put in place to kill religious people. Nobody can live a godly life by obeying rules. Jesus had to accomplish that for us.
Let me put it another way.
I don't use alcohol, I don't smoke, I don't even use profanity. But this does not please God. ALL have sinned and fall short.... I try to live a holy life because I love God and the Lord Jesus and I am thankful. I also do not want to give Satan a foothold into my life by me sinning.
But again, I don't live this way to try and please God, nor "earn" my salvation.
That has already been accomplished by my Lord Jesus.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nice to know you believe in a God who is harsh to his own people (Christians, none of whom ignores their sin, as you claim they do, even though you know next to nothing about them... they call that pre-judging), while simultaneously saving those who refuse to accept him.

Your God is pretty twisted. Oh, wait, that would be you, the o ...[text shortened]... neighbor as yourself." And, for some reason, I don't think you assume the worst about yourself.

atheist and non-your flavor-christians go to hell, do you think this is true or false?
serial killers and rapists who repent moments before their death go to heaven, true or false?
the people killed in the flood deserved to die, all of them, true or false?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't have a problem with these verses either. You are reading something into it of your own imagination...

What am I reading into the passages .. there are two that say exactly the same thing .. one from Paul and another from Peter.

Can you tell me what the passages are saying? Or do you chose to ignore them.

Do you have a reference in Romans for what you said about death of the body and not lss of salvation?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Doubly unjust is the kind of God in which many Christians believe.

Unjust 1 - Their God will burn and torment for all eternity anyone that does not believe in Christ or, did not hear about Christ, or never accepted Christ, as their saviour, even if that person may have lived lives full of love, charity, forgiveness, mercy and generosity towards others.
...[text shortened]... might be.

None of these two doctrines is Biblical. Why do they believe in such foolishness?

Doubly Biblically illiterate.

Illiterate-1. Christians don't believe in an unjust God.

Illiterate-2. That there is any other than God that can "reward" anyone with eternal life based on faith in Jesus Christ. Including oneself.

Originally posted by josephw
Doubly Biblically illiterate.

Illiterate-1. Christians don't believe in an unjust God.

Illiterate-2. That there is any other than God that can "reward" anyone with eternal life based on faith in Jesus Christ. Including oneself.

Here is a passage from the Word of God. Please read it:

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another😉 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:13-16 KJV)

I will summarise for you:
1. Doers of the law are just before God
2. Gentiles who have no law [Law of Moses] can do naturally the things in the law
3. The law is written in their hearts
4. Their conscience is their guide to right and wrong
5. God will judge them. [this means they are not doomed to hell like you think]

Originally posted by Rajk999
What am I reading into the passages .. there are two that say exactly the same thing .. one from Paul and another from Peter.

Can you tell me what the passages are saying? Or do you chose to ignore them.

Do you have a reference in Romans for what you said about death of the body and not lss of salvation?

Better than that.....here is a good explanation of these verses you constantly bring up.

Is It Impossible To Come Back to God?
--What's the point of Hebrews 6:4-6?
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted of the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subject Him to public disgrace."

Many have read Hebrews 6:4-6 and interpreted it to mean that someone can be saved, choose a sinful life, and then can never recover their salvation. However, a close examination of the surrounding scripture makes it clear that what the author of Hebrews was saying has nothing to do with the impossibility of returning to God.

Is the passage about losing salvation?
Whether or not one can lose salvation is an age-old debate and has caused much dissension within the Church. It is possible to come up with many convincing verses for both sides, if one is willing to read them in a certain light. It is not the intention of this article to try and answer that question once and for all for all mankind. You likely have made up your mind already about this polarizing topic, and it is tangential to the real point of this passage, anyway. The fact is that whether or not you can lose salvation, this passage is about something else entirely.

This passage, like most Scripture outside of the Gospels, goes beyond the issue of salvation. Most of the New Testament is about the fact that once they have become saved, different people have different levels of success in their walk with God. The New Testament consists mostly of letters written by Paul and others to Christians. For the most part, Paul’s letters aim to tell believers, "OK, now that you've begun this journey, here's how to live it." The whole thought process is how to grow as a Christian. Never is there any thought given to the idea of becoming a non-Christian.

Before Paul, of course, there was the Lord Jesus Himself, and many times He made it clear that our heavenly Father wants to take us back if we do stray. One of many examples is the story of the Prodigal Son. This illustrates the point well, because as Jesus tells the story, we see one very important thing: the son never ceases being his father's son. The fact that he is His son tells us that he symbolizes a Christian, a child of God.

The story of the Prodigal son should always be kept in mind when considering the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6. If that passage truly means that one cannot leave, and then return, to a relationship with the Lord, then the story of the Prodigal son has no place in the Bible, because leaving and return to a relationship with our heavenly Father is exactly what that parable is about.

So what about the word impossible?
So let’s go back to Hebrews 6:4-6. Why does this passage say that it is "impossible" to be brought back to God? The truth is, it doesn’t. The statement is that it is impossible to be brought back to repentance. While it is true that one must repent to become a new Christian, one need not be a new Christian to repent. The key phrase in the NIV is "brought back", but King James and NAS say it is impossible to renew them again.

The question is, who's doing the renewing? It may be impossible for you or me to bring them back, but that doesn't mean that God cannot. This idea of what is "impossible" shows up in the Gospels, when Jesus is talking. Take for example the following verses, which are parallel: Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27 and Luke 18:27. The Luke verse tells us: "Jesus replied, 'What is impossible with men is possible with God.' " So don't let the word 'impossible' fool you into thinking that this passage in Hebrews means that there is no way a saved person can leave God and come back. It happens all the time, actually. (I’ve done it myself). It is God, working through His Holy Spirit, who brings His lost sheep back.

So what does the passage mean, then?
So if this passage isn’t about the loss of salvation, what is it about? A key to the answer to that question is in the second half of verse 6, which says 'since they again crucify Jesus'. This is where the context is useful. Please take a look at the end of Chapter 5 through the first two verses of Chapter 6. A modern paraphrase might be, "OK, enough talk about the simple issues of salvation; because we could go on and on and talk about resurrection, eternal judgment, the laying on of hands, etc. But there are deeper issues to discuss in order for you to see measurable growth in your Christian walk." It is important to keep in mind who he was writing to. The recipients of this letter were Hebrews (hence the title of the book), a group of folks who had a hard time getting rid of the concept of salvation by works, because it was something they grew up with. The writer is imploring the Hebrews: Jesus paid for your sins with His death, now accept it and move on. Bottom line: this passage is about performance-based Christianity, a line of thought we all need to be careful not to fall into.

Slurpee Example:
Let’s look at a modern example: You and I are driving around on a hot summer day. We decide a cold treat of some sort is in order. We see a 7-11, and we go in and each get a Slurpee. I offer to pay for both.

If that episode played out as I just described it, you most likely would accept my offer as a gesture of friendship and thank me for it, and we would go on about our business. But if you were to accept my free gift and then turn around and try to pay the clerk anyway, even after I had paid, you would be defeating the purpose, nullifying my gift to you.

I would think to myself, "What an idiot I am! I just wasted a buck on this person. Well, I’m sure not paying for that Slurpee again. I already did it once, and it's paid for." This is what that part of verse 6 is saying when it says we are crucifying Jesus all over again. We don't need to get stuck on our works, or on performance, because Jesus has paid for our salvation. It's a done deal. It is finished. Quit trying to pay for your own Slurpee!

The writer says in verse 1, "Therefore, leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, . . . " In other words, let's stop going on about the fact that faith, not works, is what gets you salvation, let's talk about how to grow in Christ now that you have become a child of God.

The frustrating thing for the author of Hebrews is that once these people have accepted salvation as a free gift, some have fallen back into their old ways of thinking that works is what saves you, and that is the “falling away” mentioned in verse 6. The author is warning them (and us) that once someone gets the whole idea of salvation as a free gift, and then blows it off, then that person is going to have a hard time growing in Christ.

Ok, what about getting “burned?”
Verse 8 contains a word which would lead some to think the writer is talking about Hell. The word to which I refer is "burned." The fact is that not every Biblical reference to burning has to do with eternal damnation. I could give several examples, but the one that fits best here is found in 1 Corinthians Chapter 3:12-15:

"Now if any man build upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, as through fire."

Key point being that he is still saved. There are many passages, verses, and phrases about which Christians may disagree, but there is no other way to interpret that past phrase, "but he himself shall be saved . . ." except to say that he is still saved. Here is a clear case of burning being associated with someone who is still saved.

Actually, that set of verses in 1 Corinthians is life-altering when understood clearly. If you want to find out more, I strongly recommend a book by Rick Howard and Jamie Lash called "This Was Your Life." It seems God gave Mr. Howard a dream about the Judgment Seat Of Christ, where all believers will have their works judged, not for salvation purposes, but for rewards. Your can read about it at www.lifegivingwords.com. The portion here which is relevant to our discussion is that the burning in Hebrews 6:8 is not talking about a believer going to Hell because he fell away. It is, however, talking about a believer, which we can see by looking back at verse 5.

Bottom Line
The intended point of the writer of this passage in Hebrews is that those of us who have tasted what the Lord offers should not let ourselves get caught up in the idea that our works are what saves us, because it is a slap in the face of the One who died for us. Rather, we should concentrate on maturing as believers so that we can reflect Him more.

Unfortunately, the whole idea of “Performance Christianity” is more prevalent among Christians than we think. It is true that almost all believers will say that they believe salvation is a free gift, most of us at one time or another still fall into the trap of believing we can get more of God’s love by performing, and that we risk the very existence of our relationship with Him based on our actions.

God doesn’t like our failures, but when we don’t fail, it is because of Him and the abilities that He has put into us that enable us to move forward in our Christian walk. Get out of the trap of worrying about the effect your actions might have on your salvation, thank God daily for His free gift, try to be more and more like Him, and tell others the good news!

http://www.middletree.net/hebrews6.asp

Originally posted by checkbaiter

So what does the passage mean, then?
So if this passage isn’t about the loss of salvation, what is it about? A key to the answer to that question is in the second half of verse 6, which says 'since they again crucify Jesus'. This is where the context is useful. Please take a look at the end of Chapter 5 through the first two verses of Chapter 6 ...[text shortened]... more like Him, and tell others the good news!

http://www.middletree.net/hebrews6.asp

I guess you cannot explain it huh ? 😀

I dont read cut and pastes pal. I can google and read that stuff for myself.

What do YOU have to say about the passage.

I can understand if you decline ... its tough to see clear scripture contradicting your 'easy path to eternal life'