Originally posted by Rajk999

I dont read cut and pastes pal.

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Then you prefer to be like an ostrich and bury your head in the ground. ie. "I don't see! I don't see!"

I read the whole post and think it was pretty good.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I dont read cut and pastes pal.

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Then you prefer to be like an ostrich and bury your head in the ground. ie. "I don't see! I don't see!"

I read the whole post and think it was pretty good.[/b]

*Point of correction. Ostriches don't do that.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I dont read cut and pastes pal.

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Then you prefer to be like an ostrich and bury your head in the ground. ie. "I don't see! I don't see!"

I read the whole post and think it was pretty good.[/b]

I have read stuff like that already on the internet and it makes no sense to me. That kind of lopsided analysis appeals to those whose doctrines are already entrenched in their mind and all they need is some kind of half-baked refutation of the offending passage.

Why do I call it half-baked ? They simply deal with Hebrews 6 on its own ignoring all the supporting and similar passages throughout the NT, giving some childish 'slurpee' example. Then they jump across to 1 Cor 3 , about being burned etc leaving out the part where God said those that defile his temple THOSE HE WILL DESTROY [much like you do],

Those who seek the truth will take all the passages together [and there are about a dozen like Heb 6] and try to understand what Christ and the Apostles are saying about the consequences of sin. But thats bad news for some Christians. They dont care to hear about that since it will upset their lifestyle.

Originally posted by Rajk999

I have already read stuff like that already on the internet and it makes no sense to me. That kind of lopsided analysis appeals to those whose doctrines are already entrenched in their mind and all they need is some kind of half-baked refutation of the offending passage.
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You didn't read it so you don't know.

Why do I call it half-baked ?
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Because you didn't read it and hope it was a weak argument.
Not terribly impressed.

They simply deal with Hebrews 6 on its own ignoring all the supporting and similar passages throughout the NT, giving some childish 'slurpee' example. Then they jump across to 1 Cor 3 , about being burned etc leaving out the part where God said those that defile his temple THOSE HE WILL DESTROY [much like you do],
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It is true that that passage says God will destroy those who destroy the temple. But the context is that suffering of loss of those who are SAVED yet so as through fire.

The destroy there then must be the suffering of loss of those who are saved. waste, shrivel, wither, decay [ed], spoil, to pine, ruin, currupt, defile, destroy are the words I see in Strong's Concordance of Greek entry # 5351.

Since i have no problem realizing the sobering fact that a believer can be disciplined or punished by Jesus Christ at the judgment seat of Christ, I can fully believe a saved person could "suffer loss" in varying degrees, up to even severely without being eternally lost.

Some Christians readily teach degrees of REWARD.
And some of us show that to be consistent, degrees of discipline are ALSO possible as many passages indicate.

So there are TWO categories in First Corinthians 3:

1.) SAVED and rewarded.
2.) SAVED yet so as through fire who suffer loss and may be destroyed.


Those who seek the truth will take all the passages together [and there are about a dozen like Heb 6] and try to understand what Christ and the Apostles are saying about the consequences of sin. But thats bad news for some Christians. They dont care to hear about that since it will upset their lifestyle.
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Bad News is not ONLY eternal perdition.
Bad News can also be "SAVED, yet so as through fire."

It is your naivete which understands that the ONLY bad news in the Bible is to be lost forever. But bad news can also be being SAVED but suffering loss in Christ's piercing examination at the outset of the millennial kingdom.

Actually since God disciplines for perfection every son whom He receives, according to Hebrews, the discipline turns OUT to be good news.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I have already read stuff like that already on the internet and it makes no sense to me. That kind of lopsided analysis appeals to those whose doctrines are already entrenched in their mind and all they need is some kind of half-baked refutation of the offending passage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...[text shortened]... son whom He receives, [/b]according to Hebrews, the discipline turns OUT to be good news.[/b]

WRONG :

Two degrees of reward
PLUS
One degree of Destruction.

DESTRUCTION. !!

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I have already read stuff like that already on the internet and it makes no sense to me. That kind of lopsided analysis appeals to those whose doctrines are already entrenched in their mind and all they need is some kind of half-baked refutation of the offending passage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...[text shortened]... son whom He receives, [/b]according to Hebrews, the discipline turns OUT to be good news.[/b]

What about Judas Iscariot? Is that not an example of your OSAS doctrine being not applicable, or is Judas 'Saved through Fire' and not eternally lost ?

Remember the Bible says that it was better if the man was not born. Sounds like the consequences are pretty dire and cannot include entry in Gods Kingdom.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What about Judas Iscariot? Is that not an example of your OSAS doctrine being not applicable, or is Judas 'Saved through Fire' and not eternally lost ?

Remember the Bible says that it was better if the man was not born. Sounds like the consequences are pretty dire and cannot include entry in Gods Kingdom.

Do you think Judas could have been saved?

Originally posted by josephw
Do you think Judas could have been saved?

We are not speaking of could or should. The doctrine of OSAS makes the claim that once saved you cannot lose your salvation. Judas was a disciple and given the HS gifts and was in good standing with God and Christ. Then is committed a grave dire sin.

There are at least a dozen or so passages by variious NT writers that address the consequences of sinning beyond what God is prepared to forgive.

So I am not interested in what could have been done but what was actually done given the statements in the Bible, AND whether or not that serves as a case which contradicts the OSAS doctrine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
We are not speaking of could or should. The doctrine of OSAS makes the claim that once saved you cannot lose your salvation. Judas was a disciple and given the HS gifts and was in good standing with God and Christ. Then is committed a grave dire sin.

There are at least a dozen or so passages by variious NT writers that address the consequences of sinn ...[text shortened]... nts in the Bible, AND whether or not that serves as a case which contradicts the OSAS doctrine.

You are narrow minded. Do you not think that if Judas had not taken his life and met the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ he could not have asked for forgiveness?

Look at Peter. He blasphemed when he cursed and denied Jesus prior to Jesus' crucifixion, but was forgiven. Peter also had the Holy Ghost!

Have you not read psalm 51? Did not David have the Holy Ghost? Yet he committed adultery, murder and bore false witness, all sins against God for which death is the only option. But David was forgiven too.

Originally posted by josephw
You are narrow minded. Do you not think that if Judas had not taken his life and met the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ he could not have asked for forgiveness?

Look at Peter. He blasphemed when he cursed and denied Jesus prior to Jesus' crucifixion, but was forgiven. Peter also had the Holy Ghost!

Have you not read psalm 51? Did not David have the Holy ...[text shortened]... se witness, all sins against God for which death is the only option. But David was forgiven too.

And you pal are a dunce. The issue is NOT WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED.

The issue is what actually did happen.
What did Christ say about the fate of Judas.
Compare that with the OSAS doctrine.

Obviously you are afraid to answer as it will surely contradict your cherished OSAS belief.

Originally posted by Rajk999

We are not speaking of could or should. The doctrine of OSAS makes the claim that once saved you cannot lose your salvation. Judas was a disciple and given the HS gifts and was in good standing with God and Christ. Then is committed a grave dire sin.
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After Christ's resurrection He breathed into the disciples and told them to "Receive the Holy Spirit". They were regenerated at that time.

Was Judas among them ? See John 20:19-25).
The answer is No.
So though all twelve disciples were outwardly endowed to use the power of the name of Jesus to perform some acts, it doesn't mean all twelve received the Holy Spirit inwardly.

By the way. The Lord Jesus had told them that they would receive the Holy Spirit FOREVER and not temporarily.

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He might be with you FOREVER." (John 14:16)

The Holy Spirit has also been breathed into my being. He will be with me FOREVER . And since I know that I am still a work in progress and that God CANNOT dwell with sin, I therefore KNOW that the redemption of Christ is effective FOREVER also.

Otherwise the Holy God could not dwell in me. I know that He sees me THROUGH the blood of Christ the Redeemer. And I KNOW that I can have fellowship with HIm because He views me "in Christ". And all this WHILE I am still in the process of being sanctified, transformed and conformed to the Firstborn Son of God.

Once SEALED always SEALED.

" And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:20)

I am "SEALED" by the Holy Spirit "UNTO" the day redemption. That is not temporarily unto some time before the day of redemption.

The day of redemption there means the day of resurrection / transfiguration. IE. The redemption of the body.

" ... eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23)

These repeated points seem to be lost on you.
But the word of God says I am SEALED forever, not unsealed sometime before the day of the redemption of my physical body.

There are at least a dozen or so passages by variious NT writers that address the consequences of sinning beyond what God is prepared to forgive.
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There are probably more than a dozen. They do not all mean the lost of eternal salvation.

Once again, God has BEGUN a good work in us and will not leave it uncompleted but will finish it.

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6)

Now "the day of Christ Jesus" does not mean a 24 hour day. The day of Christ Jesus includes the thousand year millennial reign BEFORE the beginning of the eternal age.

So the "good work" God has begun in me could conceivably continue during the 1,000 years prior to the age of the new heaven and new earth.

Once SEALED always SEALED. And once SAVED as in eternally REDEEMED - always saved.


So I am not interested in what could have been done but what was actually done given the statements in the Bible,
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I gave you some above. But you don't seem to believe in them.


AND whether or not that serves as a case which contradicts the OSAS doctrine.
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Many sobering verses in the NT only underscore the truth that God disciplines every SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.

"For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the Father does not discipline?" (Hebrews 12:6,7)

Your error is that you teach God DISOWNS His sons.
The Bible says He disciplines His sons whom He has received. .And that receiving is forever.

The scope of what may constitute discipline is very wide.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]
There are at least a dozen or so passages by variious NT writers that address the consequences of sinning beyond what God is prepared to forgive.
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There are probably more than a dozen. They do not all mean the lost of eternal salvation.

Once again, God has BEG ...[text shortened]... ed. .And that receiving is forever.

The scope of what may constitute discipline is very wide.[/b]

Talking around the topic and not dealing with the question is dishonest, but that is your way I guess. The question is what exactly did Christ [or anyone else] say about Judas and his salvation? I asked nothing about you [I notice you love talking about yourself], or anyone else that is forever sealed. I am aware that there are such people whoa re sealed eternally . What the Bible contradicts very clearly is your claim that :
- anyone that confesses Christ with their mouth is saved eternally
- not even God can revoke that salvation.

God has revoked the possibility of eternal life for Judas Iscariot and Christ was clear on that.

In addition to the 1 Cor 3 passage which says that God WILL DESTROY Christians that defile his temple, here is one more:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)

Here we see Christians being sealed with the promise of eternal life. I can see you smiling .. but notice Paul goes on and on for about 4 more chapters speaking at length about the duty and responsibility of the Christian to follow after good works and refraining from sin because the consequences are fatal .. FATAL. It is not just 'pass through fire' as you claim :

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (Ephesians 5:2-6 KJV)

Paul is talking to Christians about the fate of evil Christians ...NONE OF THEM WILL HAVE ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So even though they are sealed as Paul said first. YES THEY ARE SEALED. BUT GOD CAN AND WILL UNSEAL THEM IF THEY CONTINUE WITH SIN

Satan and his angels were once sons of God. God hates sin and God destroys sinners that are unrepentant or which cannot be forgiven.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Talking around the topic and not dealing with the question is dishonest, but that is your way I guess. The question is what exactly did Christ [or anyone else] say about Judas and his salvation? I asked nothing about you [I notice you love talking about yourself], or anyone else that is forever sealed. I am aware that there are such people whoa re sealed e ...[text shortened]... of God. God hates sin and God destroys sinners that are unrepentant or which cannot be forgiven.

You are messed up sir.
All the words in the world will not open up your understanding. Only God's personal revelation to you will change your heart.
But I will say this, My earthly father was greater than the god you worship.
My earthly father loved me and would never condemn me, no matter what I did.
My heavenly Father is greater than my earthly father and will certainly do no less.
My heavenly Father paid for all my sins before I was even born.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You are messed up sir.
All the words in the world will not open up your understanding. Only God's personal revelation to you will change your heart.
But I will say this, My earthly father was greater than the god you worship.
My earthly father loved me and would never condemn me, no matter what I did.
My heavenly Father is greater than my earthly fa ...[text shortened]... and will certainly do no less.
My heavenly Father paid for all my sins before I was even born.

So did God personally reveal himself to you and told you all that stuff about not condemning you no matter what you did?