Originally posted by Suzianne
No, I don't think that at all.
ou ou
Why would you think I think that?

Oh, right. It's part of the "theists are always wrong" doctrine.

You actually didn't address the question, I don't think theists are always wrong, but they have propensity to avoid uncomfortable points raised in questions, which you have portrayed admirably.

Originally posted by sonhouse
No proof I could give would convince you anyway so it isn't worth the effort.

I already said one proof is the number of religions on Earth totally at each others throats and you pull the free will card.

It doesn't matter WHAT I bring up, the religious crowd will have a ready answer, having gone through this for the last few thousand years and have hon ...[text shortened]...

It seems just as clear to me all 7+ billion of us could die and also no deity would respond.

Just lay out the proof? Proof suggests that you have sufficient evidence for
the truth on any point! Now if all you have is evidence that those that agree
with you accept so what! Your proof is only so strong it makes the choir
you are preaching to accepts it, that does not mean it is true, it only means
that those of like mind accept it.

Originally posted by OdBod
You actually didn't address the question, I don't think theists are always wrong, but they have propensity to avoid uncomfortable points raised in questions, which you have portrayed admirably.

How am I "avoiding the point"?

I answered your question, I said no. I asked you what makes you think I think that? No answer to that yet, though.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Just lay out the proof? Proof suggests that you have sufficient evidence for
the truth on any point! Now if all you have is evidence that those that agree
with you accept so what! Your proof is only so strong it makes the choir
you are preaching to accepts it, that does not mean it is true, it only means
that those of like mind accept it.

His proofs aren't actually proofs, just his opinion, which we've all heard countless times already.

It's only the volume that changes.

Originally posted by DeepThought
You see this is the problem. Non theists might agree to some beyond reasonable doubt formulation, but the theists never going to accept a disproof of God's existence where there was any epistemological uncertainty. Of course if it were a proof of God's existence then I suspect the standards the theists required would be lower. Certainly atheist ...[text shortened]... is possible with anything, never mind the existence of God, the entire thread is somewhat moot.

I don't care if they agree, I care if a position is rationally justified.

I care about being right.

You cannot have epistemological certainty about the nature of reality including
the existence or otherwise of any gods.

Thus anyone demanding such certainty on either side is not rationally justified
and can be demonstrated to not be rationally justified.

If you cannot argue that it's incorrect to believe as true, and act as if true, a
statement with odds of being true worse than winning a national lottery several
times in a row... Then you don't deserve to be debating in the first place.

Originally posted by Suzianne
How am I "avoiding the point"?

I answered your question, I said no. I asked you what makes you think I think that? No answer to that yet, though.

You said any death is only part of the soul's journey. It is not unreasonable to suggest that life is not as important as the soul.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Just lay out the proof? Proof suggests that you have sufficient evidence for
the truth on any point! Now if all you have is evidence that those that agree
with you accept so what! Your proof is only so strong it makes the choir
you are preaching to accepts it, that does not mean it is true, it only means
that those of like mind accept it.

'The Proof' consists of a logical argument coupled with the summed total of
scientific knowledge gained over the centuries...

Given that you don't understand logic or maths, or accept many well proven
scientific facts such as the age of the universe, or evolution, you are unlikely
to accept the proof.

This is not the fault of the proof however, it is not it's fault that you are
irrational and wilfully ignorant.


However, I will, again, lay the argument out in a new thread.

But probably over the weekend when I have time for such a long post where there
is a need to carefully plan it out and structure it.

Originally posted by OdBod
You said any death is only part of the soul's journey. It is not unreasonable to suggest that life is not as important as the soul.

But we are here for a reason. I know this runs counter to what most atheists think, but this is where our souls are tested. We are stripped of any knowledge of God, and then sent here as infants to grow up and to learn about God from scratch. The test is whether we follow God or not, not based on what we already know, but what we learn. Life is a wondrous thing, an unknown, to be sure. Even so, it is indeed only a glimpse of what is to come.

But we have to find meaning here. Love is the greatest of all human characteristics. What we learn here is important, not only here, but in the next life as well. This is not a meaningless existence to be taken or skipped as we will. What we do here, with the limited time we have, is also important. Do we use our limited time for ourselves, as many have done, to exalt ourselves and for our own glory, or do we help our fellow man, show love and compassion for our neighbor? That is what this life is all about. It certainly doesn't do us any good if we cop to a plan to 'get it over with' so we can get to 'the good stuff'. That is not God's plan.

Originally posted by Suzianne
But we are here for a reason. I know this runs counter to what most atheists think, but this is where our souls are tested. We are stripped of any knowledge of God, and then sent here as infants to grow up and to learn about God from scratch. The test is whether we follow God or not, not based on what we already know, but what we learn. Life is a wondro ...[text shortened]... cop to a plan to 'get it over with' so we can get to 'the good stuff'. That is not God's plan.

You just stated as fact, claimed as knowledge, that which you both do not,
and cannot know.


You HOPE that this is true, you WISH that this is true, you BELIEVE that this
is true.

You do not KNOW that this is true.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I don't care if they agree, I care if a position is rationally justified.

I care about being right.

You cannot have epistemological certainty about the nature of reality including
the existence or otherwise of any gods.

Thus anyone demanding such certainty on either side is not rationally justified
and can be demonstrated to not be rationall ...[text shortened]... al lottery several
times in a row... Then you don't deserve to be debating in the first place.

"rationally justified"

"epistemological certainty"

"can be demonstrated to not be rationally justified"

"If you cannot argue that it's incorrect to believe as true, and act as if true, a statement with odds of being true worse than winning a national lottery several times in a row... Then you don't deserve to be debating in the first place."


You know, you seem to work really, really hard at missing the point. I know it's because you don't believe, but you need to grow past all this. Maybe develop an "eastern" way of looking at things. Develop the ability to see and choose those things that are really important and what is actually just so much fluff. Your life would be so much better if you did these things.

(I'd add "trust me", or "I promise", but I know you'll just blow these things off as well.)

Originally posted by Suzianne
"rationally justified"

"epistemological certainty"

"can be demonstrated to not be rationally justified"

"If you cannot argue that it's incorrect to believe as true, and act as if true, a statement with odds of being true worse than winning a national lottery several times in a row... Then you don't deserve to be debating in the first place."


Y ...[text shortened]... .

(I'd add "trust me", or "I promise", but I know you'll just blow these things off as well.)

Again... Arrogantly assuming you know what my life is like and what would make it better.


Do tell me what my life is like. Reveal Hidden Content

Originally posted by googlefudge
You just stated as fact, claimed as knowledge, that which you both do not,
and cannot know.


You HOPE that this is true, you WISH that this is true, you BELIEVE that this
is true.

You do not KNOW that this is true.

No, you're wrong. I hope someday you can see that, but you'd have to remove the veil you surround yourself with first. And that takes great courage.

Not only do you NOT believe, you also do NOT hope nor wish it to be true. I hope you can learn to step beyond the veil and see your folly. I hope it can happen without any life-endangering events that often accompanies such a shift in perception. You will someday encounter the truth, as will we all, but I hope you can make the leap of faith to get to the truth before your time on this earth is through.

Not likely, I know. But Paul made the leap. You can, too.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Again... Arrogantly assuming you know what my life is like and what would make it better.


Do tell me what my life is like. [hidden] [knives out, traps set, implied] [/hidden]

I don't have the slightest farking clue what your life is like. I know nothing about it. But I do know that opening your eyes to truth WILL make it better. It IS kind of a no-brainer. 🙂

Originally posted by googlefudge
'The Proof' consists of a logical argument coupled with the summed total of
scientific knowledge gained over the centuries...

Given that you don't understand logic or maths, or accept many well proven
scientific facts such as the age of the universe, or evolution, you are unlikely
to accept the proof.

This is not the fault of the proof howeve ...[text shortened]... ave time for such a long post where there
is a need to carefully plan it out and structure it.

I'm glad you like my "willful ignorance" concept.

Pretty good, huh? 🙂

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, you're wrong. I hope someday you can see that, but you'd have to remove the veil you surround yourself with first. And that takes great courage.

Not only do you NOT believe, you also do NOT hope nor wish it to be true. I hope you can learn to step beyond the veil and see your folly. I hope it can happen without any life-endangering events that of ...[text shortened]... time on this earth is through.

Not likely, I know. But Paul made the leap. You can, too.

If presented with sufficient evidence I will believe that a god or gods exist.

I will never worship any gods, or anything or anyone else for that matter.
And this will never ever change under any circumstances.

You would have to alter me beyond all recognition to change my mind on this, at
which point I would no longer BE me and would thus already be dead.


According to your religion that makes me damned either way.

However as you well know your religion and god has nothing whatsoever of
value to offer me anyway.

So all I want from your [non-existent] god is to be left alone.

Your religion doesn't allow that.



And repeatedly posting that you wish I would change my mind on this is pointless.

It's never ever going to happen.

Not even your god could achieve this.