1. Joined
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    04 Apr '11 02:07
    How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

    Man invents God, but can't feed the starving children?

    Man generates an army of scientists and flies a man to the moon, yet is unable to create an agricultural base enough to feed the hungry?

    Man builds war machines costing astronomical amounts of money, but can't make peace with himself?

    Did you see how much money the CEO's profited from the sweat of those who labored for it, yet I know of people who are buying frozen pizza because they can't afford food anymore?

    Thank God for evolution. Otherwise we'd have to blame God. 🙄

    After all, we can't hold man accountable for greed or envy or hatred. It's all because of evolution.

    Everything is just how it's supposed to be. Right?

    Seems to be a disconnect somewhere. Am I alone?
  2. Melbourne, Australia
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    04 Apr '11 04:43
    Originally posted by josephw
    How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

    Man invents God, but can't feed the starving children?

    Man generates an army of scientists and flies a man to the moon, yet is unable to create an agricultural base enough to feed the hungry?

    Man builds war machines costing astronomical amount ...[text shortened]... just how it's supposed to be. Right?

    Seems to be a disconnect somewhere. Am I alone?
    Sigh.
    I'm sure you're not alone.
    This is like the murderer who's got some psychiatric disorder blaming the disorder for the murder ... it wasn't my fault judge, it's this problem with my brain.
    Sorry, that doesn't cut it - we can't separate ourselves from our brain. We are our brain (and our heart and liver and toes ...).
    Likewise for evolution ... we are responsible for our deeds - good and bad. To blame evolution would be to attribute some sort of direction or goal to evolution - that it intended to make us greedy or envious or hatefull - which of course it did (and does) not.

    Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
    But everything is how it is.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
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    04 Apr '11 05:48
    Originally posted by josephw
    How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

    Man invents God, but can't feed the starving children?

    Man generates an army of scientists and flies a man to the moon, yet is unable to create an agricultural base enough to feed the hungry?

    Man builds war machines costing astronomical amount ...[text shortened]... just how it's supposed to be. Right?

    Seems to be a disconnect somewhere. Am I alone?
    There are plenty of "disconnects" there.
    First of all , the powers that be, that own the world, are smart enough to portray themselves as theists or athiests. Some politicians can clearly be seen trying to gain votes while professing to be christians-or athiests, whatever the election calls for.
    These powers dont want the starving children fed. They like to keep things the way they are.
    One major problem that they've discovered is that the worlds rescources are not infinite, and despite trying to jump ship, they are all in this thing with us now.

    We are all aware of your biases, but whether biased or not, you have raised some very difficult problems with modern society.

    I assume God expects us to work it out for ouselves and would like to intervene as little as possible 🙂
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    04 Apr '11 05:51
    Originally posted by amannion
    Sigh.
    I'm sure you're not alone.
    This is like the murderer who's got some psychiatric disorder blaming the disorder for the murder ... it wasn't my fault judge, it's this problem with my brain.
    Sorry, that doesn't cut it - we can't separate ourselves from our brain. We are our brain (and our heart and liver and toes ...).
    Likewise for evolution ... we a ...[text shortened]... s) not.

    Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
    But everything is how it is.
    What do you mean that things aren't the way they are supposed to be? what are you getting at specifically here (or generally) ?
  5. Melbourne, Australia
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    04 Apr '11 22:23
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    What do you mean that things aren't the way they are supposed to be? what are you getting at specifically here (or generally) ?
    I didn't say things aren't the way they are supposed to be - I was refuting the notion that things are the way they are supposed to be. I don't think things are supposed to be anything.
  6. Joined
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    04 Apr '11 22:52
    Quote:

    "How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?"

    I think concepts are imperfect human constructs, even if a being that exists corresponds to the concept. Presumably in this case, that being would know how close the concept can come to the reality, for each who has such a concept in mind.
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    04 Apr '11 23:222 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

    Because we can trace the history of the idea which was only formulated in these terms after and not before the philosphical concepts which it expresses. Indeed it is argued in many religious circles that to attribute qualities to God such as infinite powers or eternal being is already a move away from religious thought into human reasoning.

    Man invents God, but can't feed the starving children?

    Well we can. For example it is well argued that famines do not arise in democracies. The last famine in India was in 1943 when Churchill declined to divert from the war effort sufficient supplies, which were available and many argued should have been deployed. Malthus would be astonished [and silenced] to discover how succesfully the planet has absorbed such a stupendous population increase since his time (pace the blindingly obvious question about sustainability).

    Man generates an army of scientists and flies a man to the moon, yet is unable to create an agricultural base enough to feed the hungry?

    We have a perfectly adequate agricultural base for this purpose. We also know that it could feed more people better if it gave less resources to producing meat. People do not starve because there is not sufficient food. (During the infamous potatoe famine in Ireland, 1845, the country continued to export cereals and foodstuffs).

    Man builds war machines costing astronomical amounts of money, but can't make peace with himself?

    Well the Man who builds war machines is indeed the Man unable to make peace and has no desire to do that it seems. It would be nice if Man learned to get along without violence and maybe in time that will be achieved. However, to be fair there has been a lot more peace in the past 50 years than historically, even accepting that wars continue to arise and violence below that level is endemic. It is perhaps useful here to check out just how persistently violent our history has been to appreciate the change required, and it is a project that humanity did not even consider before recent times. So maybe you are impatient.

    Did you see how much money the CEO's profited from the sweat of those who labored for it, yet I know of people who are buying frozen pizza because they can't afford food anymore?

    Yes indeed and Socialism in some form will have to be restored to popular favour before that changes, free from the authoritarian strain which has poisoned its history to date. [Meanwhile poverty is no excuse for buying pizza. I had beans on toast for my dinner tonight and that must cost less without poisoning me.]

    Thank God for evolution. Otherwise we'd have to blame God. 🙄 After all, we can't hold man accountable for greed or envy or hatred. It's all because of evolution.

    Why not? Man is a product of evolution but has the unique capability that he can act outside of instinct and not only use reason, but also learn or be taught new habits of behaviour. Learning to overcome base appetities is a challenge for us all and a skill that is best instilled from childhood. It is extremely useful in this enterprise to understand just what appetites are and how they influence our behaviour. After all any attempt to treat Man as an exclusively rational being will fail. Equally any attempt to describe Man as a disembodied spirit will fail because we are very much embedded in flesh.

    Morality and ethics, of course, are not the preserve of scientists and science is never value free. By the same token, aesthetics stand apart from science, and yet science makes great use of aesthetics - mathematicians in particular insist that they know they are approaching a solution when they perceive beauty in their work.

    Everything is just how it's supposed to be. Right?

    That was one idea floated for instance in Voltaire's novel Candide. To quote from Wikipedia: "...As philosophers of Voltaire's day contended with the problem of evil, so too does Candide in this short novel, albeit more directly and humorously. Voltaire ridicules religion, theologians, governments, armies, philosophies, and philosophers through allegory..."

    Whether we consider this concept right or wrong must wait until we get clear just what it means. It is quite an interesting one.

    Seems to be a disconnect somewhere.

    The disconnect would be seen by many as a matter for political debate. Social arrangements are open to review and change. Anything that seeks to ossify society and tell us it is as it must be because it is for example God's will must be challenged. Think of the Divine Right of Kings in Europe, or the way Brahmins cornered for themselves (and still do) a position of high status and power through India's caste system. We must take responsibility for the way things are. At times, such as currently in Syria and Libya, that requires ordinary people to confront the violence of their oppressors, as have many in the past to create the tolerable societies that so many of us now enjoy and perhaps take too much for granted. Sometimes to be perfectly fair that struggle has been expressed in religious terms - as for example in the formation of the very attractive Sikh religion in opposition to oppression from both Hindu and Muslim in NW India of the 17th and 18th Century.

    Am I alone?

    You may be very much alone as we all may be, yet we are inherently social creatures and I, for example, am here to offer solace and light.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
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    05 Apr '11 03:54
    Originally posted by amannion
    I didn't say things aren't the way they are supposed to be - I was refuting the notion that things [b]are the way they are supposed to be. I don't think things are supposed to be anything.[/b]
    I see. Since you have an opinion on how things should be, who, in your opinion, says what is supposed to be (or not)?

    "God" or the people or both or neither?

    Just asking, not trying to get cute...
  9. Melbourne, Australia
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    05 Apr '11 05:00
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I see. Since you have an opinion on how things should be, who, in your opinion, says what is supposed to be (or not)?

    "God" or the people or both or neither?

    Just asking, not trying to get cute...
    I think you mistake my position.
    I don't have a view on how things should be - things just are as they are.
    I just don't think that there is some way that things are supposed to be as opposed to being some other way. That suggests fate or direction or goal in the way our world works. I don't think it works this way.
  10. Joined
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    05 Apr '11 05:39
    Originally posted by amannion
    I think you mistake my position.
    I don't have a view on how things should be - things just are as they are.
    I just don't think that there is some way that things are supposed to be as opposed to being some other way. That suggests fate or direction or goal in the way our world works. I don't think it works this way.
    Maybe people misunderstood your 'Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No."

    Might it best be taken then as, "There is no way it is 'supposed to be'"?
  11. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    05 Apr '11 05:42
    God is of such a perfection that it is unattainable to our mind.

    Man could not have created such greatness.
  12. Joined
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    05 Apr '11 15:55
    Originally posted by amannion
    I didn't say things aren't the way they are supposed to be - I was refuting the notion that things [b]are the way they are supposed to be. I don't think things are supposed to be anything.[/b]
    ==============================
    I didn't say things aren't the way they are supposed to be - I was refuting the notion that things are the way they are supposed to be. I don't think things are supposed to be anything.
    ====================================


    So you are implying that things are supposed to be chaotic, vain, and in anarchy.

    The implication is self-refuting.
  13. Joined
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    05 Apr '11 16:27
    Originally posted by josephw
    How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

    Man invents God, but can't feed the starving children?

    Man generates an army of scientists and flies a man to the moon, yet is unable to create an agricultural base enough to feed the hungry?

    Man builds war machines costing astronomical amount ...[text shortened]... just how it's supposed to be. Right?

    Seems to be a disconnect somewhere. Am I alone?
    A lot of different things can be read into your questions as they are pregnant with possible implications, some of which don't seem to make much sense. Can you clearly state the points you are trying to make?
  14. Territories Unknown
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    05 Apr '11 16:27
    Originally posted by amannion
    Sigh.
    I'm sure you're not alone.
    This is like the murderer who's got some psychiatric disorder blaming the disorder for the murder ... it wasn't my fault judge, it's this problem with my brain.
    Sorry, that doesn't cut it - we can't separate ourselves from our brain. We are our brain (and our heart and liver and toes ...).
    Likewise for evolution ... we a ...[text shortened]... s) not.

    Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
    But everything is how it is.
    Well, everyone else is having a poke at your unfortunate turn of a phrase, so who am I to treat you any different, right?

    Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
    But everything is how it is.

    In essence--- even given your fumbling attempts at re-imagining your comments--- you are saying that what we have is the best of all possible worlds, thereby indirectly pointing the reader back to the supposed source of this state: evolution.

    Can't have it all ways, or even both ways and hope for anything resembling non-contradiction.
  15. Territories Unknown
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    05 Apr '11 16:28
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [b] How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

    Because we can trace the history of the idea which was only formulated in these terms after and not before the philosphical concepts which it expresses. Indeed it is argued in many religious circles that to attribute qualities to God such ...[text shortened]... inherently social creatures and I, for example, am here to offer solace and light.[/b]
    I don't think you understood the tongue-in-cheek nature of the original post.
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