Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Well, everyone else is having a poke at your unfortunate turn of a phrase, so who am I to treat you any different, right?

[b]Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
But everything is how it is.
In essence--- even given your fumbling attempts at re-imagining your comments--- you are saying that what we have is the best of all possible world ...[text shortened]...
Can't have it all ways, or even both ways and hope for anything resembling non-contradiction.[/b]

WTF?

P: It is not the case that everything is just how it's supposed to be.

Please explain to the audience how it follows from P that "what we have is the best of all possible worlds".

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==============================
I didn't say things aren't the way they are supposed to be - I was refuting the notion that things are the way they are supposed to be. I don't think things are supposed to be anything.
====================================

So you are implying that things are supposed to be chaotic, vain, and in anarchy.

The implication is self-refuting.[/b]

WTF?

P: It is not the case that everything is just how it's supposed to be.

Please explain to the audience how it follows from P that "things are supposed to be chaotic, vain, and in anarchy".

Originally posted by LemonJello
WTF?

P: It is not the case that everything is just how it's supposed to be.

Please explain to the audience how it follows from P that "what we have is the best of all possible worlds".

If, as alleged, evolution is how this whole thing came to be, then there cannot possibly be a better outcome than what it is right now. There cannot be a 'better,' really.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If, as alleged, evolution is how this whole thing came to be, then there cannot possibly be a better outcome than what it is right now. There cannot be a 'better,' really.

How many times do you need evolution explained to you?

Originally posted by Palynka
How many times do you need evolution explained to you?

Once more, with feeling.

EDIT: What a buffoon you must be to think I don't understand the premise or practice.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If, as alleged, evolution is how this whole thing came to be, then there cannot possibly be a better outcome than what it is right now. There cannot be a 'better,' really.

Well that's a big fat FAIL.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Once more, with feeling.

EDIT: What a buffoon you must be to think I don't understand the premise or practice.

It's evident from your words that you don't or are deliberately trying to be misleading.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If, as alleged, evolution is how this whole thing came to be, then there cannot possibly be a better outcome than what it is right now. There cannot be a 'better,' really.

If, as alleged, evolution is how this whole thing came to be, then the ability to make moral comparisons and act on them must be a highly useful adaptation, because it is a nearly universal ability.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Well, everyone else is having a poke at your unfortunate turn of a phrase, so who am I to treat you any different, right?

[b]Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
But everything is how it is.
In essence--- even given your fumbling attempts at re-imagining your comments--- you are saying that what we have is the best of all possible world ...[text shortened]...
Can't have it all ways, or even both ways and hope for anything resembling non-contradiction.[/b]

Holy crap, you guys are all idiots.
I didn't even start the phrase - I was merely responding to JW's original post.
As I read my post it makes perfect sense - to me. I'm not saying we have the best of all possible worlds - I'm saying that to say that is ridiculous. I'm saying the world is how the world is, neither good nor bad, neither best nor worst.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==============================
I didn't say things aren't the way they are supposed to be - I was refuting the notion that things are the way they are supposed to be. I don't think things are supposed to be anything.
====================================

So you are implying that things are supposed to be chaotic, vain, and in anarchy.

The implication is self-refuting.[/b]

Okay, let me spell this out so that even a moron can understand.
I AM SAYING THAT THINGS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ANYTHING. Notice the emphasis on supposed. There is no way that things are supposed to be - there is no plan. There is no good world, or bad world.
We just have what is.

Originally posted by josephw
How is it that some believe that the concept of an eternal being with infinite powers is a creation of man?

Man invents God, but can't feed the starving children?

Man generates an army of scientists and flies a man to the moon, yet is unable to create an agricultural base enough to feed the hungry?

Man builds war machines costing astronomical amount ...[text shortened]... just how it's supposed to be. Right?

Seems to be a disconnect somewhere. Am I alone?

In my opinion it is impossible for the human mind to comprehend infinite and eternity.
Perhaps it should be really really big and for a long long time. 😕 🙂

Originally posted by amannion
I think you mistake my position.
I don't have a view on how things should be - things just are as they are.
I just don't think that there is some way that things are supposed to be as opposed to being some other way. That suggests fate or direction or goal in the way our world works. I don't think it works this way.

Yes, your answers are a bit cryptic for me this mornin. Let me have a shot at trying to understand.
I'll just start with one comment- "I dont have a view on how things should be - things are just as they are." I find it hard to believe that a man of your academic qulifications and experience would not have a view on how things "should be".
Not all things, but surely you have some ideas on how some things could be improved upon, within your field of understanding. (?)
Just leaving faith or direction or goal to the side for a moment, just on a practical, day to day basis, surely you have some ideas on how our world could be a better place?

And as for things being "things being just as they are" , surely you can only see one part of how things are and not the whole picture of everything.
I am still unclear on your position, but at least you are narrowing down for me what you believe.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Well, everyone else is having a poke at your unfortunate turn of a phrase, so who am I to treat you any different, right?

[b]Everything is just how it's supposed to be? No.
But everything is how it is.
In essence--- even given your fumbling attempts at re-imagining your comments--- you are saying that what we have is the best of all possible world ...[text shortened]...
Can't have it all ways, or even both ways and hope for anything resembling non-contradiction.[/b]

I wouldn't thought of his comments as "fumbling attempts at re-imagining...".
i would've taken those comments as more conservative interpretations of the points he was trying to make.
(Just an example of how the same words can be interpretted quite differently by different readers)

I sometimes wonder, Freaky, whether you are being honest in your appraisal of some of the comments left here ( by ahtiests, especially), or whether you have an innate nature to undervalue and/or debase non-christians in general.
I wont jump to conclusions, as I can see you are intelligent, however, if you are intelligent, then surely you can see that we would like it if you would be non-biased in your comments directed at non-christians.

The content for me is more important than the poster' faith. I try not to let the posters predisposition towards a certain faith affect my answers when considering my posts. I try to keep to the content. (there have prolly been a few exceptions to this, I will admit, but by and large, my posts do NOT make biased interpretations based on one's faith , rather I try to stick with debating the content)

Originally posted by Seitse
God is of such a perfection that it is unattainable to our mind.

Man could not have created such greatness.

Apparently Jesus and the buddha and a host of Zen masters ( and others) have been able to attain this "perfection" . Not many, I'll admit, but certainly enough to make a counterpoint to your blanket statement.

"Man" has the potential to create such "greatness". Or at least understand it in their own way.

Christians (on this forum anyway) have all shown repeatedly that they view themselves as separate from "God" (albeit mostly indirectly),and that is the first stumbling to any furthur into investigation into this subject, ie. that we are unable to understands "Gods" mind.
Remember that in some other faith systems, there is no difference between the mind of god and the mind of man. I use the the term "mind" because of the premise that we all share the same mind. A premise that is more prevalent than one would see at first glance.

Originally posted by amannion
Okay, let me spell this out so that even a moron can understand.
I AM SAYING THAT THINGS ARE NOT [b]SUPPOSED TO BE ANYTHING. Notice the emphasis on supposed. There is no way that things are supposed to be - there is no plan. There is no good world, or bad world.
We just have what is.[/b]

Excuse me sir, but there is no need to be so insulting. No one here expects to agree on everything, but I think most here would agree you need to cool it.
Go to the GF if you want to insult people please.