Eternal Life Query

Originally posted by bbarr
Fair enough. Out of curiousity, suppose Ratzinger declared ex cathedra that aborted fetuses and unbaptized children were condemned to Hell. Would you find this morally troubling? If so, would you take it as evidence against papal infallibility?

Bbarr, what are you smoking ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Bbarr, what are you smoking ?

American Spirits Light (TM).

Seriously, though, what does God do with aborted fetuses? If resurrection is a physical affair, as Catholics maintain, then what body do aborted fetuses get in the afterlife? Do they go to Heaven or Hell? If you, like LH, don't know, then that's fine. If you do know, or know of any documents that address this issue, then let me know.

Originally posted by bbarr
Out of curiousity, suppose Ratzinger declared ex cathedra that aborted fetuses and unbaptized children were condemned to Hell. Would you find this morally troubling? If so, would you take it as evidence against papal infallibility?

The word "hell" is used in two nearly identical senses in Church literature.

1. (Normative) Hell as a state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God (CCC 1033). This can only happen through an act of mortal sin (CCC 1037) - which an infant cannot commit.

2. (Descriptive) Hell as a state of deprivation of the [beatific] vision of God (CCC 633). Only those in mortal or original sin can be condemned to this state (Council of Florence). However, the pentalties of those in this state would differ depending on the type of sin (ibid).

The difference between these two "Hells" is what the Church has traditionally understood to be the limbus infantium (children's limbo) - a state where the souls of the unbaptized can attain [perfect] natural but not supernatural happiness (i.e. beatific vision).

If the Pope were to make a declaration of the type you've stated, he would have to refer to Hell(2) and hence to limbo.

So, to answer your questions - no and no.

Originally posted by bbarr
American Spirits Light (TM).

Seriously, though, what does God do with aborted fetuses? If resurrection is a physical affair, as Catholics maintain, then what body do aborted fetuses get in the afterlife? Do they go to Heaven or Hell? ...[text shortened]... r know of any documents that address this issue, then let me know.

They certainly will not go to hell. That's all I know. I do not think there are any official Church documents on this issue. I leave the answer to that question to God's wisdom.

There is a place somewhere in the Gospel where people ask Jesus how things are "arranged" in heaven in the case a man was married twice in his earthly life. I don't remember where this is written. Can anybody tell me ? I would like to know Jesus's answer. I have a hunch His answer has some relevance regarding the question you ask here, Bbarr.

Well, the first two posts of this thread were worth reading (and a few here and there).

Is this going to be another worthless spectacle of abortion debate? Whatever the afterlife may be, I certainly hope people have a fimer grasp of how to stay on topic.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
They certainly will not go to hell. That's all I know. I do not think there are any official Church documents on this issue. I leave the answer to that question to God's wisdom.

There is a place somewhere in the Gospel where people ask Jesus how things are "arranged" in heaven in the case a man was married twice in his earthly life. I don't remember ...[text shortened]... answer. I have a hunch His answer has some relevance regarding the question you ask here, Bbarr.

It was a trick question from the Sadduccees (Lk 20:27-40).

Jesus replied, "The children of this world take wives and husbands, but those who are judged worthy of a place in the other world and in the resurrection from the dead do not marry because they can no longer die, for they are the same as they angels, and being children of the resurrection they are children of God ..." (Lk 20:34-36)

Originally posted by lucifershammer
It was a trick question from the Sadduccees (Lk 20:27-40).

Jesus replied, "The children of this world take wives and husbands, but those who are judged worthy of a place in the other world and in the resurrection from the dead ...[text shortened]... the resurrection they are children of God ..." (Lk 20:34-36)

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke20.htm

Luke, chapter 20

Some Sadducees, 7 those who deny that there is a resurrection, came forward and put this question to him,
28
8 saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us, 'If someone's brother dies leaving a wife but no child, his brother must take the wife and raise up descendants for his brother.'
29
Now there were seven brothers; the first married a woman but died childless.
30
Then the second
31
and the third married her, and likewise all the seven died childless.
32
Finally the woman also died.
33
Now at the resurrection whose wife will that woman be? For all seven had been married to her."
34
Jesus said to them, "The children of this age marry and remarry;
35
but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36
They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise. 9
37
That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called 'Lord' the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38
and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
39
Some of the scribes said in reply, "Teacher, you have answered well."
40
And they no longer dared to ask him anything.


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke20.htm

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
For those of you who believe in life after death, I have a query.

When I die, and my afterlife begins, do I continue on

(a) as the person who died at the moment of death, or
(b) as the person who died sometime before the momen ...[text shortened]... m mistaken, is a lot of Christian dogma.

What do you all think?

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke24.htm

Luke, chapter 24


33 So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them
34
who were saying, "The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!"
35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.
36
9 While they were still speaking about this, he stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you."
37
But they were startled and terrified and thought that they were seeing a ghost.
38
Then he said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do questions arise in your hearts?
39
10 Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."
40
And as he said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
41
While they were still incredulous for joy and were amazed, he asked them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
42
They gave him a piece of baked fish;
43
he took it and ate it in front of them.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke24.htm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The resurrected body will be a glorified body, not affected by disease or any other result of sin.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a11.htm

From the Cathechism of the Roman Catholic Church:


How do the dead rise?

997 What is "rising"? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus' Resurrection.

998 Who will rise? All the dead will rise, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."552

999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself";553 but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, "all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear," but Christ "will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body," into a "spiritual body":554

But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel. . . . What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . The dead will be raised imperishable. . . . For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.555

1000 This "how" exceeds our imagination and understanding; it is accessible only to faith. Yet our participation in the Eucharist already gives us a foretaste of Christ's transfiguration of our bodies:

Just as bread that comes from the earth, after God's blessing has been invoked upon it, is no longer ordinary bread, but Eucharist, formed of two things, the one earthly and the other heavenly: so too our bodies, which partake of the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, but possess the hope of resurrection.556

1001 When? Definitively "at the last day," "at the end of the world."557 Indeed, the resurrection of the dead is closely associated with Christ's Parousia:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.558

Risen with Christ

1002 Christ will raise us up "on the last day"; but it is also true that, in a certain way, we have already risen with Christ. For, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, Christian life is already now on earth a participation in the death and Resurrection of Christ:

And you were buried with him in Baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead . . . . If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.559

1003 United with Christ by Baptism, believers already truly participate in the heavenly life of the risen Christ, but this life remains "hidden with Christ in God."560 The Father has already "raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."561 Nourished with his body in the Eucharist, we already belong to the Body of Christ. When we rise on the last day we "also will appear with him in glory."562

1004 In expectation of that day, the believer's body and soul already participate in the dignity of belonging to Christ. This dignity entails the demand that he should treat with respect his own body, but also the body of every other person, especially the suffering:

The body [is meant] for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? . . . . You are not your own; . . . . So glorify God in your body


http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a11.htm

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The word "hell" is used in two nearly identical senses in Church literature.

1. (Normative) Hell as a state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God (CCC 1033). This can only happen through an act of mortal sin (CCC 1037) - which an infant cannot commit.

2. (Descriptive) Hell as a state of deprivation of the [beatific] vision of Go ...[text shortened]... would have to refer to Hell(2) and hence to limbo.

So, to answer your questions - no and no.

Interesting. Thanks. Does it strike you as unfair or unjust for those who die before baptisim be eternally denied the beatifc vision of God? Obviously this is not as bad as causing them to eternally suffer, and they certainly shouldn't be positively rewarded for having had the bad luck to die, but wouldn't it be better if they had an opportunity to continue spiritually progressing?

Originally posted by bbarr
Interesting. Thanks. Does it strike you as unfair or unjust for those who die before baptisim be eternally denied the beatifc vision of God?

Maybe. Maybe that's why the Church has never definitively taught that unbaptised children are Hell-bound and, instead, teaches us to hope and pray for their salvation.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
... teaches us to hope and pray for their salvation.

But that would mean that God has to be goaded into doing the right thing, it seems.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
But that would mean that God has to be goaded into doing the right thing, it seems.

Not at all. Prayer is as much for our own benefit.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
But that would mean that God has to be goaded into doing the right thing, it seems.

Hmmm
Or it could just be a tacit admission that they don't know everything about how God works.

There is something wrong here, can't put my finger on it.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Hmmm
Or it could just be a tacit admission that they don't know everything about how God works.

There is something wrong here, can't put my finger on it.

Perhaps the inherantly contradictive nature of an entity whos purpose is to answer questions about something they can not know everything about, subsequently pressuring it to find answers it can not possibly know?