Everything from nothing

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do people honestly think everything could have come from nothing?

If so how?

My understanding is that God spoke it into existence.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

(Genesis 1:3 KJV)

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are talking to someone who rejects relativity because he finds it to not make intuitive sense.

Yes - until one accepts that the micro-universe and the macro-universe
do not make sense to our intuition there can be no progress.

What annoys me is that Kelly and the like daily use devices which rely
on the science of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Yet cannot
accept other consequences because of their intuition.

Staggering.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Yes - until one accepts that the micro-universe and the macro-universe
do not make sense to our intuition there can be no progress.

What annoys me is that Kelly and the like daily use devices which rely
on the science of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Yet cannot
accept other consequences because of their intuition.

Staggering.

I have no problem accepting science that works. My problem is with those that try to stuff evilution down our throat as if it were scientific fact when it does not work and it even violates established science laws.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have no problem accepting science that works. My problem is with those that try to stuff evilution down our throat as if it were scientific fact when it does not work and it even violates established science laws.

Only in your warped creationist mind doesn't evolution "work".

Originally posted by RJHinds
My understanding is that God spoke it into existence.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

(Genesis 1:3 KJV)

My understanding as well.

I got through about 8 pages of reading here.

A Portion of a Debate between Atheist Biologist Richard Dawkins and Christian Mathematics professor John Lennox. "On who created God?"

Dr. Lennox and Dr. Dawkins were discussing the Logos of John 1:1. For context my quotation is of John 1:1-4,14.

"In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. ...

And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory as of the Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality."

Dawkins: "But you haven't explained where the Logos came from in the first place."

Lennox: "Well of course not, because the Logos didn't come from anywhere."

Dawkins: " Well then, in what sense is it an explanation?"

Lennox: "Because, when you ask who created the Logos, that is you're thinking of a created God. The whole point about the God revealed in the Bible is that He was not created - He is eternal. He is the eternal Logos. And I ask myself, as an inference to the best explanation, which makes more sense: that there's an eternal Logos and that the universe, its laws, the capacity for mathematical description and so on, are derivative - including the human mind - from the Logos? That makes very much more sense to me as a scientist than if it's the other way around, [especially] when there is no explanation for the existence of the universe. Do you believe the universe is a brute fact?"

Dawkins: "The universe is an easier brute fact to accept than a conscious creator."

Lennox: "Well, who made it?"

Dawkins: "It's you who insists on asking that question."

Lennox: "No, no, you asked me who made the creator. The universe created you, Richard. Who made it then?"

Dawkins: "A God is a complicated entity, which requires a much more sophisticated and difficult explanation than a universe, which is, according to modern physics, a very simple entity. It's a very simple beginning; it's not a negligible beginning, but it's a very simple beginning. That has got to be easier to explain than something as complicated as a God."

Lennox: " I think you may have missed my question. I'm drawing a parallel. But I'm getting the message [from you] that it's ridiculous for me to believe in a God who created the universe and me because they have to ask who created God. All I'm doing is turning that question around and saying the universe, you admit, created you because there's nothing else. Well then, who created it?"

Dawkins: "I understand you perfectly. Both of us are faced with the problem of saying how did things start."

Lennox: "Yes."

Originally posted by Dasa
You have not explained anything, but have made way for hundreds of questions.

Question you have no answers for.

Like for instance: explain the existence of consciousness and reproduction in trillions of life forms, when science cannot even create 1 little ant.

That wasn't in the question. The question was, 'Everything from nothing?" I was talking about the physical universe, whether it was called into being by a god or whether it was the result of the big bang, both took energy and lots of it.

We are free to choose between either scenario since we have no scientific proof otherwise but the big bang explains a lot of features we now see with our best telescopes and radio telescopes.

Originally posted by KellyJay
My understanding as well.

Your understanding???
What exactly do you understand?

How do you interpret "said" for instance?

What exactly do you understand about the process of creating a universe by saying "Let there be light"?

Originally posted by sonship
I got through about 8 pages of reading here.

Did Lennox eventually admit that Dawkins was right or did he do what you do and just keep on insisting on his point of view even when it has conclusively been proved wrong?

Originally posted by sonhouse
That wasn't in the question. The question was, 'Everything from nothing?" I was talking about the physical universe, whether it was called into being by a god or whether it was the result of the big bang, both took energy and lots of it.

We are free to choose between either scenario since we have no scientific proof otherwise but the big bang explains a lot of features we now see with our best telescopes and radio telescopes.

However, there is no explanation for a big bang. If there was nothing, then what caused a big bang? 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
However, there is no explanation for a big bang. If there was nothing, then what caused a big bang? 😏

You really don't get it. There was NEVER nothing. There was always energy, you may call it god if you wish but there was energy before our universe was born. Whether you chose to believe in a god breathing life into the universe to kick start it or the big bang, both are batteries of energy and were set off by something.

You MAY remember that not very well known equation, E=MC^2? Doing a bit of elementary math, M=C^2/E. They are two sides of the same coin.

Even YOU could probably do the math.

Originally posted by sonhouse
You really don't get it. There was NEVER nothing. There was always energy, you may call it god if you wish but there was energy before our universe was born. Whether you chose to believe in a god breathing life into the universe to kick start it or the big bang, both are batteries of energy and were set off by something.

You MAY remember that not very w ...[text shortened]... ary math, M=C^2/E. They are two sides of the same coin.

Even YOU could probably do the math.

This is new, how do you know?

Originally posted by KellyJay
This is new, how do you know?

Because energy was always there, it HAD to be if there was either a god doing the work or what science believes, a big bang. It is not new, it is obvious to many people, I am just the first to point this out here. Do you understand the implications of that equation, E=MC^2? and the opposite side of the coin, M=E/C^2?
In the BB interpretation, there was first, a massive injection of energy that was the BB and when that energy spread out, it cooled to a temperature that allowed matter to freeze out, before that, it was just a blob of a massive amount of energy.

The conservation of energy says you don't get something from nothing.

The energy to make the universe was there all along, whether you chose to believe it was a god waving its rhetorical fingers or the BB, the end result is what you see today.

The BB, if that is proven to be true, had all the energy we see in the universe, all in one tiny blob, like blowing a bubble through a knothole, on one side of the fence (another dimension) was this energy and maybe there was a weakness in the fence and there was the bubble that became our universe. That last is just me trying to visualize what may have happened, nothing more.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Because energy was always there, it HAD to be if there was either a god doing the work or what science believes, a big bang. It is not new, it is obvious to many people, I am just the first to point this out here. Do you understand the implications of that equation, E=MC^2? and the opposite side of the coin, M=E/C^2?
In the BB interpretation, there was fi ...[text shortened]... ame our universe. That last is just me trying to visualize what may have happened, nothing more.

Okay, energy or God...so why energy and not God?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, energy or God...so why energy and not God?

God isn't energy. God would control energy if it was real. It flicks its rhetorical finger and energy flings off it and BOING, a new universe is created. OUR universe is created, there could be many others. My personal deity story of the creation of the universe is a higher dimensional space that has a school, where school kids have to make a universe, and it is on display like a bird in a cage, where the instructor judges each new creation of its students. So ours is sitting on it's little cage and the instructor is going over the good news and the bad news for the student.

Ok, now try again, this time, get your pets to live together more compassionately.

And poof, our universe gets put into a blender and ZIP, a new one is formed with the lessons learned......