19 Aug 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYou've had the same rebuttals to this age old argument many times over. More importantly, do you honestly believe that everything could have come from fairy glitter and twinkle dust? When do you plan to grow up?
Do people honestly think everything could have come from nothing?
If so how?
🙂
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19 Aug 15
Originally posted by KellyJaySome people do, me included.
Do people honestly think everything could have come from nothing?
If so how?
It's one of the possibilities for what happened based on current scientific understanding.
Whether it's what actually happened... No idea.
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19 Aug 15
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatWell either everything had a beginning, in which everything must have ultimately come from nothing.
Do you think it's more likely that there's something that always existed? That seem illogical.
Or something has existed forever, and existence of some kind extends backwards to infinity.
I am not sure either position is more probable a-priori than the other one.
Either Great A'Tuin swims under it's own steam, or it's turtles all the way down...
I'm not sure either is really satisfying as an answer, but it would seem foolish to think that "being satisfying"
is one of the rules baked into the universe... particularly after uncovering quantum theory.
20 Aug 15
Originally posted by googlefudgeThank you for the honest answer.
Some people do, me included.
It's one of the possibilities for what happened based on current scientific understanding.
Whether it's what actually happened... No idea.
I'm still unclear how it could have happen, someone will have to share how who thinks they
know.
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20 Aug 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYes but what you believe always existed is your god.
Yes, I believe something has always existed, what is your answer to the question?
Which is vastly less probable than the universe itself simply existing forever,
or coming into existence one it's own.
It doesn't matter how improbable the explanations of physics are [or seem to be] a priori.
All that matters is the relative probability of those explanations vs your supernatural ones.
And your supernatural explanations are [being incredibly generous] millions of times less likely.
Originally posted by KellyJayIt seems they make a distinction between absolute nothing and a 'nothing' that does contain something... for example, 'nothingness' starts out as a quantum vacuum containing a sea of fluctuating energy. But it gets even weirder when they start talking about an infinite number of 'actual' past events (the eternal existence model).
Do people honestly think everything could have come from nothing?
If so how?
You can't have an 'actual' infinite number of anything because infinity isn't an actual number... this has recently been discussed at the science forum, so it will be interesting to see if anyone involved in that discussion will show up here and who knows, maybe suddenly change their mind... ? 🙂
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20 Aug 15
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Originally posted by KellyJayHey, I am not claiming to understand the physics of this.
Thank you for the honest answer.
I'm still unclear how it could have happen, someone will have to share how who thinks they
know.
This is deep quantum cosmology stuff and there are maybe 1000 people on the planet
if that who can credibly claim to come even close to understanding it. [probably less than that]
To have any kind of hope you would have to get a top quality undergrad masters degree in
physics/applied mathematics. [~4~5 years after getting your A-level or equivalent in maths
and physics] and then follow that up with a doctorate in the field [~5 years+] doing the kind
of maths and physics that makes most students brains melt and cause them to fail horribly
even at top flight universities. [most physics courses don't include this stuff for that very reason]
and then after completing your doctorate you would probably spend at least 3~5 years working
at a university or research post getting up to speed and THEN you might be able to legitimately
claim to understand it.... Maybe.
Nobody, but nobody, would be able to explain this to you in person or on an internet forum.
The reason being that the answer is basically 'because the maths say so'.
I know enough to understand why that's a valid answer, and how they get to that point.
I do not know enough to understand the math itself.
Although I know people who do.
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20 Aug 15
Originally posted by lemon limeThere is no absolute nothingness Inside this universe.
It seems they make a distinction between absolute nothing and a 'nothing' that does contain something... for example, 'nothingness' starts out as a quantum vacuum containing a sea of fluctuating energy. But it gets even weirder when they start talking about an infinite number of 'actual' past events (the eternal existence model).
You can't have an 'act ...[text shortened]... ved in that discussion will show up here and who knows, maybe suddenly change their mind... ? 🙂
So every observation IN this universe is of something coming from something. Even if that 'something' is apparently
empty space.
Space and time themselves are 'something'.
Absolute nothing has no space, no time, no dimensions, no properties, nothing.
Mathematically those who know this kind of stuff say that such nothingness can spawn something like our universe.
Some say it not only can, but will do so.
I don't know.
However, the point, given that this is spirituality and not science, and that these are issues way beyond a forum
discussion... The point is that our current understanding is that this kind of stuff is possible, maybe even probable.
And given that, any and all theistic arguments that rely on there HAVING to be a first cause, or necessitating that
it's impossible that nothing come from nothing, or that the universe CANNOT exist without a divine creator... etc etc...
Are invalid, as those premises are not supported by our current evidence and reason.
The details... Well if you want those, go learn physics and come back in ~15 years.
20 Aug 15
Originally posted by googlefudgeI don't know... 15 years from now you'll probably just give me the same sort of 'nothing' answer. But if I do go, then next time it will be your turn to go away for 15 years, and maybe you'll learn a few new ticks while you're gone... ?
There is no absolute nothingness Inside this universe.
So every observation IN this universe is of something coming from something. Even if that 'something' is apparently
empty space.
Space and time themselves are 'something'.
Absolute nothing has no space, no time, no dimensions, no properties, nothing.
Mathematically those who know this k ...[text shortened]... reason.
The details... Well if you want those, go learn physics and come back in ~15 years.
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20 Aug 15
Originally posted by lemon limeI don't think you understand.
I don't know... 15 years from now you'll probably just give me the same sort of 'nothing' answer. But if I do go, then next time it will be your turn to go away for 15 years, and maybe you'll learn a few new ticks while you're gone... ?
I was saying that if you really genuinely wanted to know you should go spend the time
required to actually learn the relevant stuff needed to actually understand this as I described
in my previous post. Then you would know because you spent ~15 years learning and
understanding it.
I don't need to 'go away for 15 years' because there isn't anything right now I want/need to
learn that requires that commitment.
