1. Standard memberDasa
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    31 May '14 12:13
    FMF here are just a few verses from the Quran inciting violence.

    I reality there are 164 violent verses in the Quran.

    You asked for evidence well here it is.

    How many of you have actually taken the time to read the Qur’an and see what it says? You might be surprised at what you find. I wish it weren’t so, but I find it hard to believe that Islam in its purity is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

    2:89-”Therefore, the curse of Allah is upon the unbelievers!”

    2:97-”Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael, lo! Allah is an enemy of the unbelievers.”

    2:191-”Kill them (unbelievers) wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for persecution is worse than slaughter…. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.”

    2:193-”Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”
    Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.

    2:218-”But those who believe and those who migrate and struggle in the way of Allah, those, have hope of the mercy of Allah.”
    Those who fight for Allah may have hope of forgiveness.

    3:10-”Those who disbelieve, neither their riches nor their children shall save them from Allah. They shall become the fuel of the fire.”

    3:19-”The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam. Those to whom the book was given disagreed among themselves only after knowledge had been given to them, being insolent among themselves. He who disbelieves the verses of Allah indeed Allah is swift in reckoning.”

    3:28-”The believers should not take the unbelievers as friends or helpers in preference to the believers. He who does this does not belong to Allah in anything, unless you have a fear of them.”

    3:110-”You are the best nation ever to be brought forth for people. You order honor and forbid dishonor, and you believe in Allah. Had the people of the book believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are evildoers.”
    Most Jews and Christians are wrongdoers.

    3:151-”We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.”

    4:76-”And those who believe fight in the way of Allah, but those who disbelieve fight in cause of evil. therefore, fight against those guided by Satan.”

    4:89-””Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

    4:95-”Those of the believers who sit still…are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above te sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary.”
    Muslims who fight in jihad are better than those who don’t.

    4:101-””For the unbelievers are to you open enemies.”

    5:12-16-”Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel…. But because they broke their covenant, we cursed them and hardened their hearts. They changed the words from their places and have forgotten a portion of what they were reminded…. With those who called themselves Christians, we made a covenant, but they have forgotten much of what they were reminded. Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred till the day of resurrection.”

    5:51-”O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them in friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.”

    5:64-”They [the Jews] are cursed for what they said!… As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.”

    7:4-”How many a village have we laid in ruin! In the night our might fell upon it, or at midday when they were drowsy.”

    8:12, 14-”I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike them above the necks, smite their finger tips…. the punishment of the fire is for the unbelievers.”

    8:39-”Fight them (unbelievers) until persecution is no more and the religion of Allah reigns supreme.”

    8:59-60-”Do not suppose that the unbelievers have outstripped Allah. They cannot frustrate me. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost power, including steeds of war, so that you strike terror into the enemies of allah and your enemy, and others besides them whom you do not know but Allah does.”

    8:65-”O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty patient men among you, you shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand unbelievers, for they are a nation who do not understand.”

    8:74-”Those who believe and migrated from their homes and fought for the Way of Allah, and those who have sheltered them and helped them they are truly the believers.”
    The jihad warriors are the true believers.

    9:1, 3, 5-”For four months you shall journey freely in the land. but know that you shall not render Allah incapable, and that Allah will humiliate the unbelievers…. And give glad tidings to the unbelievers of a painful punishment…. When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them.”

    9:14-”Fight them (unbelievers), Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing nation.”

    9:19-”Do you consider giving drink to the pilgrims and inhabiting the sacred mosque is the same as one who believes in Allah and the last day, and struggles in the Way of Allah? These are not held equal by Allah. Allah does not guide the harmdoers. Those who believe, and migrated, and struggle in the Way of Allah with their wealth and their persons are greater in rank with Allah.”

    9:26-”Then, Allah caused his tranquility (sechina) to descend upon his messenger and the believers; he sent legions you did not see and sternly punished the unbelievers. Such is the recompense of the unbelievers.”

    9:29-”Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the last day, who do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated (or feel themselves subdued).”

    9:30-”The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah, while the Christians (who follow Paul) say the messiah is the son of Allah. such are their assertions, by which they imitate those who disbelieved before. Allah fights them! How perverted are they!”

    9:33-”It is he who has sent forth his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to uplift it above every religion, no matter how much the idolaters hate it.”
    Islam does not seek equality with other religions. Islam must be above all others.

    9:38-”Believers, why is it that when it is said to you: ‘march in the way of Allah, ‘ you linger with heaviness in the land? Are you content with this life rather than the everlasting life? Yet the enjoyment of this life in (comparison to) the everlasting life is little. If you do not go forth, he will punish you with a painful punishment and replace you by another nation.”
    Those who refuse to wage jihad will face terrible punishment.

    9:41-”Whether lightly or heavily, march on and fight for the way of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you but knew.”

    9:44-”Those who believe in Allah and the last day will not ask your permission so that they may struggle with their wealth and their selves.”
    True believers do not refuse to fight and risk their lives and property for Islam.

    9:49-”Hell shall encompass the unbelievers.”

    9:73-”O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

    9:111-”Allah has purchased from the believers their selves and possessions, and for them is paradise. They fight in the way of Allah, slay, and are slain.”
    Muslim believers fight and so gain paradise.

    9:123-”Believers, fight the unbelievers who are near you. Let them find firmness in you. Know that Allah is with those who are cautious.”

    47:4-”Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds…. As for those who are killed in the Way of Allah, he will not let their works to go astray.”
    More commands to violence and praise for violent martyrs.

    47:8-”But the unbelievers shall be the destroyed losers. He will bring their deeds to nothing.”

    47:20-”The believers ask: ‘has a chapter been sent down? ‘ but when a clear chapter is sent down and fighting is mentioned in it, you see those in whose hearts is sickness looking towards you as one who swoons at death.”
    The Qu’ran even says that it itself contains chapter mentioning fighting! And it mocks and chastises those not willing to die in battle.

    48:28-29-”It is he who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that he exalts it above all other religions. Allah is the sufficient witness. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Those who are with him are harsh against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

    59:2-3-”It was he who expelled the unbelievers among the people of the book from their homes into the first exile. You did not think that they would go out, and they thought their fortresses would protect them from Allah. But Allah came upon them from where they did not expect, casting terror into their hearts that their homes were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the hands of the believers. Therefore, take heed you that have eyes. Had it been that Allah had not decreed that they should be dispersed, he would have surely punished them in this world. and in the everlasting life the punishment of the fire awaits them….”

    60...
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    31 May '14 12:171 edit
    Originally posted by Dasa
    FMF here are just a few verses from the Quran inciting violence.

    I reality there are 164 violent verses in the Quran.

    You asked for evidence well here it is.

    How many of you have actually taken the time to read the Qur’an and see what it says? You might be surprised at what you find. I wish it weren’t so, but I find it hard to believe that Islam in its ...[text shortened]... em in this world. and in the everlasting life the punishment of the fire awaits them….”

    60...
    Yes. These verses are about the wars against the pagans in the region 1,400 years ago. Most of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims and virtually all Muslim theologians realize this and interpret it this way. Anyone who kills someone else in the name of religion should have the full force of the criminal law brought down upon them.
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    31 May '14 14:48
    Originally posted by FMF
    Yes. These verses are about the wars against the pagans in the region 1,400 years ago. Most of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims and virtually all Muslim theologians realize this and interpret it this way. Anyone who kills someone else in the name of religion should have the full force of the criminal law brought down upon them.
    So, it is OK to kill pagans?
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    31 May '14 14:58
    Originally posted by twohybrid
    So, it is OK to kill pagans?
    No. Anyone who kills someone else in the name of religion should have the full force of the criminal law brought down upon them.
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    31 May '14 16:30
    Originally posted by FMF
    No. Anyone who kills someone else in the name of religion should have the full force of the criminal law brought down upon them.
    So those who kill in the name of law are justified?
    Curious what standard(s) you're using to warrant your conclusions.
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    31 May '14 16:36
    Originally posted by FMF
    No. Anyone who kills someone else in the name of religion should have the full force of the criminal law brought down upon them.
    The problem with your answer is that your previous comment suggests that, in times of war, it is justified to kill pagans. Please explain.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 May '14 21:31
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    So those who kill in the name of law are justified?
    Curious what standard(s) you're using to warrant your conclusions.
    That must be Sharia Law.
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    31 May '14 22:54
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    So those who kill in the name of law are justified?
    Curious what standard(s) you're using to warrant your conclusions.
    No, I oppose capital punishment. And I condemn any laws or states that punish citizens for reasons of religious affiliation or 'religious crimes'.
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    31 May '14 22:59
    Originally posted by twohybrid
    The problem with your answer is that your previous comment suggests that, in times of war, it is justified to kill pagans. Please explain.
    No, I have never suggested that it is justified to kill people because of their religious beliefs. I am offering an explanation as to the context of those 1,400 year old verses and rejecting the assertions that Dasa is making that Islamic teaching in the 21st century "supports and perpetrates murder and torture and rape and slavery and kidnapping on a global scale".
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 May '14 22:59
    Originally posted by FMF
    No, I oppose capital punishment. And I condemn any laws or states that punish citizens for reasons of religious affiliation or 'religious crimes'.
    So you must be against Islam as well as Christianity, right?
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    31 May '14 23:33
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    So you must be against Islam as well as Christianity, right?
    I am not "against" either. But in terms of my personal spiritual path, I am no more or less likely to become a Muslim than I am to become a Christian.
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    01 Jun '14 01:04
    Originally posted by FMF
    No, I oppose capital punishment. And I condemn any laws or states that punish citizens for reasons of religious affiliation or 'religious crimes'.
    Didn't quite answer the question, did it?
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Jun '14 01:08
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Didn't quite answer the question, did it?
    I answered head on. You asked "So those who kill in the name of law are justified?" and I answered "No."
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    03 Jun '14 00:43
    Originally posted by FMF
    No, I have never suggested that it is justified to kill people because of their religious beliefs. I am offering an explanation as to the context of those 1,400 year old verses and rejecting the assertions that Dasa is making that Islamic teaching in the 21st century "supports and perpetrates murder and torture and rape and slavery and kidnapping on a global scale".
    There are many Muslims groups, like the Taliban, that would disagree with you concerning Islam.
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    03 Jun '14 00:52
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    There are many Muslims groups, like the Taliban, that would disagree with you concerning Islam.
    Well the Taliban are a militarized political group with Islamic fundamentalist ideology who seek hegemony over perceived ancestral or 'God-given' lands spanning Afghanistan and parts of western Pakistan. They may commit crimes against humanity and their brand of laws may be brutal and grotesque ~ for women in particular ~ but there is no evidence that they "support and perpetrate murder and torture and rape and slavery and kidnapping on a global scale". There are probably not many more than about 40,000 Taliban in the world out of 1,600,000,000 Muslims.
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